Can anyone help. I have gone to set up a couple of new boilers (1 Warmflow and 1 Firebird)but mt electronic FGA's battery was flat on both occassions. I fished out my old faithful Fyrite kit but twice now have not been able to adjust co2 to where it needs to be. Returned the next day with FGA and got co2 reading 4% different! Could it be something to do with condensing boilers flue gases? I tried my Fyrite and a friends but could not get more than 9% co2 with shutter closed right down! Tried new fluid also. Any advice would be much appreciated.
I reckon that a wet kit will give give a significantly different reading to an analyser but not differing by much more than a half percent or possibly three quarters.
10.5 percent on a wet kit could read 11 or slightly more on an analyser.
If the fluid is tired you would get a low reading on first rinse but a second or subsequent inversion should bring the reading up progressively.
If you have not used the wet kit for some time it may have a problem with the diaphragm which could affect the results.
If we are talking RDB burners I have found at least one where zero on the indicator did not correspond with a closed shutter.
Hi all, just like the benefit of others experience please...I have a customer with an existing oil line in 15mm copper which goes through a 15mm gate valve, filter and fire valve before reaching the boiler in 10mm. The gate valve is weeping oil and to be honest the whole assembly looks like it needs remaking. So....is it good practice to replace the 15mm gate valve and if not then how do I get down from 15mm to 10mm so I can fit a 10mm fusible as a service valve? Thanks in advance for all advice.
Bearing in mind the Oftec preference for flared fittings, those are what I should reccommend.
I still find them a bit of a faff so I would use a 3/8" bsp female gate valve with a 3/8 x 15mm male iron fitting on the inlet and a similar 3/8" x10 M.I. on the outlet. Alternatively you could close couple the gate, fire valve and filter using nipples and reduce to 10mm at the last fitting in the train
Thermostatic fire valves are now required so you can probably use a lever type ball valve in preference to a fusible ( which tend to leak up the spindle )
There are loads of ways to do this, John's way is fine and I can not add anything useful there. One slight problem is that some of the smaller merchants have limited stock, so you may not get all you want in one visit. My suggestion would be to go online at BES and order from them, or better still, get a free catalog and spend 10 minutes looking through. No, I am not on a backhander, but DO find the stock range useful. You may too.
Thank you John and Bernie. I use BES for a number of items and have all the usual flaring parts 3/8 and 1/4 BSP to 10mm etc. It was just whether or not a 15mm gate valve, normally used for water, was OK for oil? I do tend to favour the fusible 3/8" valve sold by BES as a service valve and I fit them inside the cabinet with an oil line adapter in one end. This together with a remote FVV sort of gives me a belt and braces feeling. I've only ever had one leak up the spindle. Anyway, I'll cobble some parts together and go fix it in the morning. Thanks again to all.
Any news yet from "The Oil Heating Network" or Trevor, really missing what was rapidly developing into a great source of information.
Someone messing it up was really nasty, I hope the culprit was found.
Maybe Trevor will give us a progress report
Any "competent persons" using the Tuffa Tanks Firestop range of oil storage tanks as an alternative means of compliance without LABC approval?
In a letter received from OFTEC, with a copy of the letter sent to Tuffa Tanks by Paul F Everall CBE Chief Executive of LABC on the 7th April 2008, attached to it.
LABC have refuted the advertised claims by Tuffa Tanks that "there is no need for inspection from Local Area Building Control".
It transpires that these tanks can only be used with the approval of Local Area Building Control and do not come within the remit of the competent persons scheme.
The OFTEC letter states that - We would advise you that should you have installed such a product as an alternative means of compliance without LABC approval, these installations:
Cannot be legally self certificated.
That you and your clients could be held legally responsible for such unregularised installations.
That you /or your client need to seek immediate regularisation of the installations via your LABC local department.
The letter from Glen Rae ends - please note that Tuffa Tanks Ltd is not a member of OFTEC.
This is an interesting one - a product purchased in good faith, based on the manufacturer's published information - is something that we all do all of the time.
If you have self certified any of the Tuffa Firestop range of tanks, the make and type of tank will be on the notification sent by OFTEC to LABC.
Whether anyone picks this up is another thing but keep any advertised claims or correspondence for these tanks, in particular the article in the March 2008 edition of Oil Heating News magazine.
I'm not a legal beagle but common sense should say that a product bought in good faith based on the manufacturers claims must be some mitigation.
Let us know the the reaction of your Local Area Building Control if applying for retrospective approval.
Is it possible (I wonder, from a position of complete ignorance of oily issues!) that the ONLY issue with this tank is that the manufacturer has not paid a sub to OFTEC?
If so, there might be a 'cartel/ restraint of trade' question to be discussed with Office of Fair Trading! I don't think anyone can legally insist on a 'club membership' before a product conforming to relevant standards goes on sales in UK.
Seems to be a prima facie case for the Advertising Standards Authority to consider and get the matter on record. An adjudication would help.
John you're not really suggesting that problems like this can come down to such mundane reasons such as money are you?
That would never be a reason where anything gas related is concerned!!
As regards Tuffa I have had the letter from oftec and heard other stories as well. In this case what I will do is listen carefully - and say nowt - until the position becomes clearer.
I did not pick up vibes that Tuffa were being victimised for not being Ofcert .
My impression was that Tuffa had been told by LABC to sort out the problems arising as a result of their literature misleading the "tecs". They had therefore approached Oftec to distribute info to all registered technicians and so prevent them from acting on Tuffa's erroneous literature.
I suspect however that Oftec will be quietly smug about LABC's intervention. Remember that Oftec are a consortium of manufacturers and include a fair number of tank manufacturers.
As Richard has pointed out though, there will be "tecs" who have in good faith accepted the previous literature and who have therefore carried out, and possibly even self certified, what Oftec would now define as illegal installations.
Who will now carry the can if conscientious "tecs" incur costs in bringing these installations up to a legal standard?
And should LABC not have "bounced" any Self certs on these tanks if they were not prepared to accept them as suitable for the application?
And an interesting response from Tuffa on May 7th !!
Isn't this just a question of a manufacturer trying to right a wrong. IMHO oftec could have handled this more diplomatically without highlighting the certification issue. Interestingly, TUFFA are now talking to "other Competent Persons Scheme" operators which indicates that OFTEC have alienated themselves with this one.
Notwithstanding the Ofcert ticket, the tank appears to conform to the relevant standards and regulations so I personally don't see why there is an issue, although we can all guess why there is an issue. If tecs have suffered financial loss by following the literature and instruction of the manufacturer then surely they can look to the manufacturer for reimbursement, a bit inconvenient i know, but at least the tecs will not be left carrying the baby on this one.
The fact that TUFFA approached Oftec with this is in itself enough to prove a case against TUFFA. They made a mistake for which they will undoubtedly pay.
But surely that is just confirming what Oftec are telling us.
I.e. that a building notice application is necessary. You cannot self certify
Hi, does anyone have any experience with Watson Range Cookers ? Our oil-fired unit is subject to constant nuisance shut downs; we have fitted a new blast tube, coil and ECU, but the problem persists. Any advice welcome. Any engineers within striking distance of Mold, Flintshire ?
Quote from John (Re Tuffa tanks)
I.e. that a building notice application is necessary. You cannot self certify.
No, it looks like it may depend on WHO you certify with. OFTEC have taken one position others may differ.
My brain hurts (again) !
Radio frequency controls when retro fitted can put a room thermostat in the ideal position without disruption and re-decoration.
I've used them many times, even doing multi zones and RF cylinder thermostats where cabling would be difficult or too expensive.
I have used Drayton, Honeywell and Danfoss RF all with success and each make has its merits.
Recently I fitted a Danfoss 5000-RF Si programmable room thermostat with an RX1 receiver / relay box.
The thermostat had to transmit through three walls over 8 metres from its reciever but well within its 30 metre range. This set up proved to be unreliable and problematic with the heating staying on all night some times and not coming on at all at other times.
When checking it out on site by manually operating the room thermostat, the green receiver light on the RX1 would come on nearly every time followed by the red "circuit made" light. Other times the green light flashed but the red light did not come on.
When I used the transmitting Programmable Room Thermostat as a hand held it worked perfectly every time, but fix it to the wall and that’s when the problems began. I had already fitted the room stat in three different wall mounting positions each time getting closer to the receiver unit. I even changed the RX1 receiver unit.
Today I returned and took a metal detector to the walls and the penny dropped.
The problem wasn't with the equipment or the technology, but the building.
I found several steel RSJ's, metal edgings under the plaster of the many external corners and a great big arch in the hall which was not masonry but plaster over metal mesh, all in the path of the signal.
I would guess this metal had a Faraday cage effect reducing the thermostat's range and weakening the signal.
I relocated the RF room stat to an older part of the house which had very little steel in the walls and the wall mounted programmable room thermostat worked perfectly over a greater distance.
I doubt if I will get any more phone calls now but will let you know if I do.
This shared experience may save others a lot of time and angst.
I got called out over my Christmas break to a PJ that I'd serviced on the 23rd.
Lock out occured during fan pre-purge.
Removing and covering the photo-cell resulted in a normal light up. Refitting the cell once the flame was established resulted in normal operation until the next restart.
So false light in the wrong part of the start sequence.
Removed burner and blast tube, unplugged solenoid coil and test fired out of the boiler. Nice spark and no tracking of the HT leads, so reassembled.
I then slackened the retaining collar of the photo-cell and turned the cell a few degrees down, away from the light from the ignition spark - End of problem, no more lockouts.
The other one was a soot up. Long story short.
After I'd cleaned and serviced the pressure jet boiler and changed the nozzle. I could get good combustion figures (except for high CO at 120 ppm) but could not clear the smoke.
When I extended the burner's flexible oil hose and dropped it into a 25 litre jerry can of kerosene slops (that I carry) - text book combustion figures (20ppm CO) and no smoke. Put it back onto the customers kerosene oil line and I have smoke.
Aaaagh!!! Who needs this sort of nonsence at this time of year. I'm off to bed.
It would seem that your kero slops are cleaner than the tank slops, as it were.
Gremlins, Gremlins, Gremlins
So what were the tank & filter like? Clearly there must be a problem with the customers oil, so what did you do...point them at the oil supplier? Around here the standard line seems to be 'we only supply good oil' (HA! from me) besides you bought its your problem now (again ignoring Sale of Goods Act). Often they get away with it too.
Could it be that fuel problems are coming back to haunt us! It is a sad reflection if Richards "slops" are better than a recent tankful which the suppliers have delivered !!!
I am having particular problems with vaporisers recently - going for a few days and then going low or out . Put em out check the burner , filters, control, etc -- no fault.
Relight and they go fine for another few days before the problems recurr
Plastic single skin tank, manufacturer's gauze filter - clean with no apparent water.
I tend to carry a drop of the good stuff Bernie, for just this sort of situation which is becoming more frequent.
On a previous occasion it ended with a good will pump out, without prejudice, by the oil supplier and an argument as to how many call outs the customer was prepared to pay me for.
I have therefore developed quite a good Pontius Pilate act. Much more of this and I will be redoing my LPG ticket.
You know my thoughts on vaporisers John, wallflames and dynaflames excluded.
John, could it be something in the oil line? Have you tried blowing it through with compressed air? Several years ago I had a problem which turned out to be earwigs. For some reason a whole mass of them got into the oil line and getting the bits our proved to be difficult. In this case the line did not have a upward slop either, but went up and down across a track and two walls.
I dont think earwigs could be a problem here Bernie!
The tank filter was clean and it is downstream of the sight tube . Line flushes freely with Kero to the last connection before it enters the premises which is after the fire valve.
I suspect something in the product coating either the needle valve or the metering spool but nothing is visible when you clean these.
We did have similar problems a few years ago with a waxy residue in kero produced in the Teesside refinery of PetroPlus and they even owned up to it.
Perhaps the the various ingredients in the recipe for refining Kero are more complex these days, resulting in problems getting the amount of this and the amount of that correct, then cooking it for just the right length of time.?
25 to 30 years ago I think the product was a lot more basic but mostly problem free.
Test - please ignore! I have a new PC and am checking I remembered my registration details correctly - and that this still works.
Background info for non oilies - a fire safety cut off valve is to be fitted on all oil supply pipes feeding distillate oil fired boilers.
It cuts off the oil feed in the event of overheating or a fire within the boiler casing.
Its positioning is covered in BS 5410 and the OFTEC technical books.
Typical UK capillary type Fire cut off valves can be seen at -.
It would seem that we can no longer be trusted to boil a kettle.
I took my fire valve test rig along to an OFTEC RTC-1 (registered technicians meeting) meeting back in June, as the germ of an idea that someone with the resources could develop.
At lunch time I demonstrated it and the interest was positive.
From the linked pictures you will see an Antex Pipemaster electric soldering iron intended for capillary solder pipe fittings, a clamp on electronic thermometer and an insulated soldering mat.
This equipment is standard kit for many heating engineers and having assessed the risks; in the right hands it makes for a quick and safe method of testing remote sensing fire valves, especially when wearing the attached PPE.
An alternative or addition to the personal protective equipment could be a transparent cloche (like a bread board cover) that is placed over the test to contain an exploding capillary bulb in a worst case scenario.
The main danger in this application is that the Antex Pipemaster soldering head can reach 520 degrees C.
I start the fire valve test from cold, monitoring the clamp-on electronic thermometer.
In 2 minutes 12 seconds the capillary bulb of a Teddington KBB C65 goes from ambient room temperature to tripping at about 65 degrees C.
Once tripped I immediately remove the Antex Pipemaster from the capillary bulb placing it on the insulated soldering mat and switch it off electrically.
Once cooled the kit is returned to its case.
The development I would envisage would be an adjustable thermostatic control to limit the soldering iron to a safe temperature appropriate for testing 65C and 90C oil fire safety valves.
A resettable LCD temperature display to show the max. tripping temperature.
Several different diameters moulded into the soldering head to suit a range of common fire valve bulb sizes.
An insulated head with the exception of the capillary bulb contact points.
A transparent Perspex cover to place over the test being monitored as mentioned above.
Antex or some of the OFTEC Member fire valve manufacturer’s may be prepared to develop the idea especially as some 1.4 million plus fire valves need testing on an annual basis.
For electric soldering iron info www.antex.co.uk
Has anyone seen/used the FEL remote fire valve tester?
No mention of a tester on their web site - must be new? http://www.felvalves.com/index.asp
Tell us more.
Re the OFTEC news item.
"A risk assessment has been performed on the field method of testing the correct operation of remote acting capillary type fire valves. The widely used method of using boiling water from a kettle has been deemed to come with an unacceptable level of risk of scalding. Therefore, OFTEC can no longer support the testing of valves performed in this manner".
How is the above helpful to working oil technicians when they don't offer a safer alternative.
What are OFTEC saying - too dangerous to test so don't? So where is the duty of care to our customer's.
Are the current crop of graduates from the OFTEC sausage machine incapable of safely making a cup of tea. I think this is health and safety in the extreme. Extrapolate it to its logical limit and all should stay at home watching daytime TV, on state benefits as working for a living is far too dangerous.
This nonesense is not adding value to technician membership.
It was in the current Oil Installer, page 35.
"The new FEL tester from FEL Valves allows manual or pre-programmed testing for both the FELL TFV 72/95C or the Teddington KBB65/90C ranges of capillary fire valves..."
Potterton Statesman Flowsure heating pump. Are they a special or can a Grundfoss head be used?
Just took a look at prices and they are over three figures plus vat !!
So no piccies then Steve. Maybe they banned boiling water as a member company now has a tester?
"Maybe they banned boiling water as a member company now has a tester?"
Naughty naughty :-)
Its most likely to be a Myson CP53 or what ever there 6 metre head version is. The Myson pumps became Circulating Pumps Ltd who also manufactured the old SMC range of pumps.
"Wilo AG has acquired the UK's Circulating Pumps Ltd, further extending the German pump company's footprint in Europe".
From H&V news:
Sheffield-based Trianco Heating Products has ceased trading.
According to the Sheffield Star, the firm has closed with the loss of 43 jobs.
Dan Butter and Ian Brown, partners in the Leeds office of accountants and business advisers Deloitte, have been appointed as administrators and are holding talks with interested parties about selling the company's assets.
Four years ago, Trianco Heating was acquired by a management team led by the managing director Peter Ferguson.
Deloitte said it was to early to find out why the company ceased trading.
Trianco Training Services Ltd which has its offices and facilities in the same building is still trading. It has no ties with Trianco Heating Products.
Can anyone give me some advice,I have a Johnson & Starley warm air heater and lately when i turn it on the outer metal casing of the heater is getting way too hot like it`s never done before.Could it be a thermostat problem or something else?
My word - there was a J&S warm air unit in our first home as husband and wife - 1981. I loved it!
Briefly, the principles of operation are that the boiler fires up and heats a reservoir (lump of concrete!). When that is hot enough - a few minutes - a big fan starts up and circulates the air over this block - with fins on it to act as a heat echanger - via a filter. When the room stat cuts out, the boiler stops, but the fan keeps going for a while until the heat - or most of it - has been extrated from the reservoir.
On our one, the turn-on and turn-off temperatures of the fan were, I think, independently settable. This aspect never went wrong on ours so I never investigated how it worked, but I suspect relay logic and two independent thermostats (though it might have been a single bimetal strip with adjustable hysteresis).
If the wall is getting too hot, this would suggest to me that either the fan is turning too slowly (or not at all) - not sending the heat out to dissipate in the rooms fast enough and therefore getting too hot. That *might* be a stat or relay failure, but I would suggest more like the fan itself - bearings, or a severely clogged filter-cum-heat exchanger.
Incidentally, one trick I did on our J&S - I put a bypass switch on the fan controller so I could turn the fan on independently of anything else. Standing a shallow bowl of water on top of the filter which I topped up every hour or so made a wonderful pseudo aircon arrangement in the peak of the summmer.
Recommend you contact J&S directly for an approved contractor off their list.
As a company J&S are stronger than they ever were and go from strength to strength: http://www.johnsonandstarley.co.uk
Do not recommend you modify any product as mentioned above.
Mark - you Need to get some one who knows about this type of heater quickly. And if I were you I would not use it either.
Mark, do you also have the Janus water heater in this warm air unit?
If so this is quite likely to be flame spillage caused by a soot-contaminated heat exchanger. Potentially very dangerous.
I strongly recommend you don't use this appliance until you've has it checked out by a qualified warm air bod. J&S will give you some local names if you call them.
Is this board still live, and are my 2007-formed "friends" Allan, Pete et al still around? I am (not very) ashamed to say that I have managed to keep the Wallflame in tip top condition and it has served well for a further 3 - 4 years since vowing to read up the regs and put in a replacement boiler. There are many reasons for this delay, and I cannot help thinking that "mission" (as mentioned in reply to my inaugural post - see http://www.gas-news.co.uk/discus/messages/1648/2813.html?1193499215 ) is near the top of that list.
I am however down to the last of the many service kits I bought, and so now have a quandrary as to whether to mic up and make drawings of these unused parts before fitting and commission some spares based on my drawings, or finally next spring grasp the nettle of an upgrade to a fully-pumped, sealed, low-flue-temperature condensing boiler arrangement. Or is there a new flavour-of-the-month method now?
I expect I will grasp the nettle, and so in 12 months or thereabouts time, will lose a very loyal but allegedly inefficient friend! I wonder if I have the last of the Wallflames still in daily use?
As I understand it, the oily people meet elsewhere. Their presence at Gas-News was always a temporary measure as their original meeting place evaporated for some reason.
ok cheers - I'll search them out.
Thanks, Steve (awaiting approval).