Current Debate

Gas News Forum: OLD OIL FORUM: Pressure Jet Appliances [OFT 101]: Current Debate
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Craik (Bob_the_boiler) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 11:05 pm: Edit Post

What is the burner unit, there are several variations depending on the rating.

Burners vary from, Riello G series to Nuway Boxer to EOGB B9 or 2011.

If EOGB, a good starting point is the Danfoss EBI transformer, pull the burner out, remove the plug on the solenoid coil and fire the burner via the control stat, switching off before lockout and keep repeating this, if the transformer is on its way out you may well get a hint with delayed ignition.

You really need to fit an oil pressure gauge when fault finding, otherwise you have no clue if the pressure was up on a lockout.

Post back with more info on the boiler rating and burner make/model.

Cheers

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Brown (Pbrown) on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 12:12 am: Edit Post

Hi Bob,

The rating is 50/60 on kerosene with a Electro oil B9 burner, BFP41 pump & Satronic TF830.3 controller.

I'm not totally sure I understood your previous post - I pull the lead on the solenoid (so no oil is injected?) then check for delayed sparking at electrodes by switching control stat on/off?

I will install a pressure gauge - I hadn't done this before because I thought the pressure would decay down to nothing, I suppose as long as the pressure gauge tapping on pump is before the oil valve then it will hold the pressure.

I must admit the boiler has been remarkably reliable until recently as except for servicing it's had nothing replaced until last year when the motor seized & the control box was changed so not bad for 16 years service.

Cheers
Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Brown (Pbrown) on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 07:44 am: Edit Post

The burner won't light at all now. I have fitted a press. gauge & it shows 100psi (slightly low) & dips rapidly to zero & back to 100psi just prior to the lockout light coming on.

I guess this looks more likely to be the EBI?

Cheers
Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Craik (Bob_the_boiler) on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 09:45 am: Edit Post

Hi Paul,

If you have reached the stage where the burner will not fire at all then finding the fault should be straight forward.

With the press gauge fitted, remove the burner, remove the plug on the solenoid coil so the burner will not fire.

Then start the burner via the c/stat and look for the ign spark at the nozzle, and at the same time watching to see you have pump pressure.

Assuming the pressure is up and no spark then the EBI is faulty, or the spark is tracking elsewhere within the burner.

With the burner in place and starting on the c/stat, if the oil pressure rises then drops I would say you have a faulty oil pump or drive coupling.

Solenoid coils generally fail open circuit after the burner has been running for a while, they get hot.

When the lockout is reset some time later the coil has cooled and operates as normal.

Cheers

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Brown (Pbrown) on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 09:59 am: Edit Post

Hi Bob,

I only had time to quickly fit the pressure gauge this morning before heading out to work so have not pulled the burner.
When I said the pressure droped it was like a spike, it instantly droped to zero & instantly came back to full pressure all in milliseconds.
I had assumed that it was caused by the solenoid opening rather than a faulty pump?

I have sourced an EBI unit so was going to get it today & fit it tonight, do I need to get the leads as well & should I be buying an oil pump/coupling as well so I can maybe sort the problem tonight?
Can you get to the EBI unit by removing the burner or do I get to it by removing the controller & controller base?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By chris clayson (Pinepeasant) on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 11:35 am: Edit Post

thanks john

have checked oil pressure (100) and the co2 was coming in at just under 11. nozzle is the medium size at the mo but waiting for the smallest sized one to arrive. i thought a smaller nozzle might make the temp come down is this not the case??

all the print out was fine except for the flue temp that was 100 degrees too hot! good overall efficiency tho.

the air mechanism looked fine on inspection.

looks like its coming towards the last of your suggestions!!!
shame tho coz it works so well and (unsurprisingly) heats rads v. quickly!

many thanks for your input

chris


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Craik (Bob_the_boiler) on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 09:29 pm: Edit Post

Aye Paul,

The "spike" on the O.P.P (as you say) may occur just as the solenoid opens though I would expect any dip to be just a few P.S.I.

If you are starting with a "dry" blast tube and the fault is in the EBI, then if you pull the burner after an attempted start you should see some oil around the vanes of the blast tube, this shows that oil is at least leaving the nozzle.

If the H.T leads are of the white woven type they are prone to fail over time, also arcing can sometimes occur where the leads enter the transformer.

The EBI is mounted behind the control box, remove the long screws to fit the new one.
If the EBI is of the early pattern, cable fixed, then you will also require a plug to fit the new one.

I think you may well be ending up with a pile of spare parts in front of the boiler, I can tell you are getting desperate to get the thing fired up.

Cheers

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Brown (Pbrown) on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 11:04 pm: Edit Post

Hi Bob,

I pulled the burner & fired it as you suggested & there was no spark & vanes were covered in kerosene. I fitted new EBI & checked for spark - nice fat juicy spark so refitted burner.
Burner started first time (strange but no dip in pressure now?). I kept stopping & starting burner with control stat & no problems at all.

So just left the central heating on & waited for the thermal store to heat up. All seemed well for a while but it is now starting to lockout again & won't start again. Pressure is OK when it locks out.

Not sure whether I am unlucky & the EBI leads have decided to go or whether it is some interaction with the thermal store & now store is at working temperature it's causing another problem.

I guess I need to pull the burner out again & check for a spark.

As an update CH has been on for 15mins, store temp is down, I guess boiler temp. is down & now burner will restart?
Lockout has just come on again so checked thermal store temp. L76, H79 currently 79 but still calling for boiler, just reset store PCB but maybe I need a new PCB.

Cheers
Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gamble (Editor2) on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 05:07 am: Edit Post

I had exactly the same situation this week Paul.
Renewed the failed EBI (nice bulge on the side). The HT leads then tracked like mad (viewed with oil solenoid coil unplugged). Fitted new silicon coated HT leads, nice spark at the electrodes but now no oil (coil was plugged in again).
The Satronic box TF801B was original to the burner (Green EOGB label) with a scorch mark from a resistor and large flash at the contacts when the ignition de-energised. As the EBI is intermittently rated I thought it about time to change the control box. With the new control box fitted still no oil. Would you believe it the oil solenoid coil was now open circuit. Renewed the coil and it was business as usual.
Might as well change the photo-cell for good measure, but decided not to go any further as the customer was getting a bit touchy and inquired "So which bit was it then?"
All of them I said and its about time you had a a new burner complete or how about a modern high efficiency condensing boiler?

Always trade up and that way the repair cost will seem quite low in comparison ;-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gamble (Editor2) on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 05:33 am: Edit Post

We went to an occasional customer yesterday, where I'd fixed the boiler about a year ago.
He had declined a routine service then, as the property was to be rebuilt.
The boiler would not now go and he had a right go about the "major" oil leak at the filter and fusible wheel head fire valve leaking and the general poor service provided by our company (As I didnt race to get there).
I whipped out a photo copy of last years work note/report which he'd signed. It showed that he had declined the recommended routine service, that the flow rate through the filter was good so it was not touched/changed it at that time. The oil was isolated at the tank during the repair as fusible wheel head fire valves are prone to leak if touched and it was strongly recommended that the fusible wheel head be replaced with a remote sensing KBB or similar fire valve.

He had obviously been tinkering and had been found out.
He smiled and said "I suppose you'd like a cup of tea then".
Yes I thought s-d off and do something useful.

The moral - keep records.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Brown (Pbrown) on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 08:34 am: Edit Post

I'm waiting for the solenoid to go next after I've solved this locking out at high temperature issue. Next thing to do is a new boiler control stat & pcb for the store & some HT leads just in case.
I think i'll give the condensing boiler thing a miss as I believe there is problems with running them with a thermal store. I was never convinced of the idea of dropping the flue gas temp. below it,s dew point & having to cope with the resulting acid. Producing lots of acid seems a strange way to save the planet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Brown (Pbrown) on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 06:40 pm: Edit Post

Bob / John
It looks like you were right about the solenoid & I've been barking up the wrong tree on the control stat.
Does this sound like a sticking / failing solenoid?
Burner fired then instantly stopped & locked out.
Tried again & burner fired & ran then died but picked up again.
I guess I need to stick a meter across the terminals next time it stops.

Thanks for the help
Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Craik (Bob_the_boiler) on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 08:58 pm: Edit Post

Evening Paul,

Yes its possible the coil could be faulty, but its not its normal failure mode.

You would be dammed unlucky to get several failures at the same time, like Richard, (Big Grin).

By the way, is the boiler running on a low level rather than a conventional flue.

If so it will have a fan overun PCB in the boiler control panel.

A failure of the control stat, ie limit stat tripping is indicated by a small orange light to the left of the panel.

This will cause the fan motor to stop thus resulting in a lock out if the burner is running.

A wee quirk of the Myson Vitesse.

However I still think the problems are burner related.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Brown (Pbrown) on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 10:06 pm: Edit Post

Hi Bob,

I was on hand when the lockout happened so I stuck my meter across the limit stat & control stat & they were both OK & the limit light did not come on.

For the burner to start & then stop / falter would suggest that there was a lack of oil but the oil pressure was OK throughout.
Is it worth getting a pump as well as a solenoid coil?

Cheers
Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Craik (Bob_the_boiler) on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 11:11 pm: Edit Post

At the rate we are going at Paul a new burner might cost less.

Before you purchase a pump it might be worthwhile to check the drive coupling, remove oil pump and check for rounding of the flat in the coupling, pump end.

Richards comment on the control box may also be relevent, any burning around the contacts.

Cheers

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gamble (Editor2) on Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 09:55 pm: Edit Post

Another one yesterday no oil at the nozzle.

Long story short, it turns out that the plastic drive dog fitted to the 8mm 'D' shaped oil pump shaft, appeared to be in good order when viewed with the burner motor removed.

The drive dog splines were OK on the pump shaft but the drive dog had in fact split and the cup part of the drive dog would not stop the econo rod coupling from moving towards the oil pump.

About half an hour after I left site the econo rod would have moved far enough down the splines towards the oil pump to disengage from the fan hub drive dog.
You would have expected damage to the econo rod or fan hub coupling to indicate what the fault was - but nothing.

All became clear when the oil pump was removed from the burner body.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Craik (Bob_the_boiler) on Sunday, November 02, 2008 - 12:55 am: Edit Post

Got to be something old Richard when we are talking about Econo rod.

Off to bed, knackered after a ceildh dance.

Be good

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Brown (Pbrown) on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 12:00 am: Edit Post

Pump & coil replaced, coupler was OK but also replaced. Everything seems to be fine now. I'm thinking it was the solenoid or pump all along causing the intermittent problem & then the EBI went down just to confuse things.

I had thought of a complete new burner but would have had to wait so the pump was bought instead.
I also heard that Gledhill have gone into liquidation so I need to stock up on some more spares for my boilermate.
Have you heard of a boilermate 2000 being used with a wood burning stove as well as an oil boiler? I can't see why it wouldn't work as long as I could control the output from the wood burner or turn on the heating if the store temp. got too high.

Editor's note: For an accurate position on Gledhill's status, please visit http://www.gledhill.net


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Nesbitt (John11668) on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 10:23 pm: Edit Post

Chris clayson

Has it got a baffle in it ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Nesbitt (John11668) on Tuesday, November 04, 2008 - 10:06 pm: Edit Post

Hi Rich!
you seem to describe a problem which is also common to Stanley twin cookers !
The pump coupling has nothing to prevent it wandering off down the shaft towards the pump where it becomes disengaged from the yellow flexible drive (crap design really but what do expect from Ecoflam)

Good old Italian engineering Eh!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gamble (Editor2) on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 10:40 pm: Edit Post

Intermittent lockout on a new Ecoflam Max 4 fitted to a Trianco Contractor 110 HE Combi installed and commissioned by others.
The combustion head electrodes and photo cell were sooty. I cleaned them up, removed the boiler baffles and checked them for cleanliness and positioning. All seemed OK. Reassembled and combustion tested, then decide to try a new nozzle. I didn't have a 1.10/80EH nozzle per the manual so popped in the nearest a 1.0/80 EH at the 8.5 bar oil pressure per the manual and recommissioned the boiler.
The manual says 11.8% CO2. I was getting 13% CO2 and no smoke. The weird thing was I was practically on maximum air setting. Adjusting the head forward and back didn't seem to make much difference. The burner ran with exceptional CO2 no smoke and about 132 ppm CO which is a bit high

The intermittent lockouts continued after I left. I returned yesterday afternoon and took a look at the customers information pack. Inside the plastic wallet with the documents was the air brake plate, an air baffle that fits behind the nozzle assembly.
Mmm whatís that doing there? I thought.
I refitted the air brake plate and fitted the correct 1.10/80EH nozzle at 8.5 bar per the manual.
I now had good control of the air and was able to set the CO2 to 11.8% with no smoke.
Off I went a happy bunny, saying see how it goes and I'll send you a bill.

I got a call today to say it was better but still locking out. I phoned Trianco technical (which I should have done in the first place)who said the problem is caused by low sulphur kerosene, the flame is too blue for the MZ photocell. They said take the brake plate out and down rate the burner using a 1.0/80EH at 8.5 bar oil pressure.
Ummm isn't this were I came in? Maybe time to walk as quite frankly I'm too busy with profitable work at the moment.
Changing the Hungarian TF803B control box might be worth a try or a few gallons of gas-oil in the tank.
Do I throw good money after bad and go back or forget about it and refer the customer back to Trianco?
I will probably go back as I like a challenge. :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Nesbitt (John11668) on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 11:19 pm: Edit Post

Flame too blue ???????

I would take that with a pinch!
I hark back to the early inter 99s with the venturi blast tube that Booster Wash used to fit.
The MZ was new then and was peeking at the light of the flame through a 2mm hole in the diffuser. The diffuser had five vanes and a half inch central hole for the fuel to spray through. Now it did have a very blue flame but the MZ coped with that.

I cant remember the configuration of a Max 4 but could it be that it has similarly tight combustion head with too high an air speed through it?

Could this be another instance like the Camray quartets and the old Gemini (grant) range with the G5F blast tube, where the burner was specified and put into service before adequate testing had been done??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Brooks (Croydoncorgi) on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 12:25 am: Edit Post

I never cease to be astonished at the detailed issues that arise on oil burners! If natural gas or LPG burners needed as much babying as oil ones seem to, there'd be virtually no gas fitters - they'd all pack it in because their new installs would never work properly!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gamble (Editor2) on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 11:42 am: Edit Post

Mine do John but it takes a tenacious breed of masochist to be successful.
Its other peopleís oil problems that give me the grief - the third party commissionings, manufacturerís warrantees and snagging my newest best mateís oil installation.

When oil was dirt cheap (a long time ago) it was worth the effort but now Iím not so sure. People still want a fully automatic fuel when off the natural gas mains such as LPG or the marginally cheaper Kerosene and Gas-oil.

Cutting up, stacking, storing, loading and de-ashing Wood log burners is usually a last resort option for most of my customers. Wood pellets have there own issues, mainly water (as in damp).

Biodiesel looks promising but would seem more suitable for a road fuel due to its short shelf life (a semi food grade product).
Combustible rubbish, and there is a lot of it about, now thatís the fuel of the future.

Fortunately Iíve also got a domestic / commercial RGI ticket.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steve lawton (Culpeper) on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 07:39 pm: Edit Post

does anyone know where I can buy a sterling 50 burner for a worcester greenstar heatslave,all the sterling burners I have found are nothing like the ones pictured in the worcester manual


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gamble (Editor2) on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 09:43 pm: Edit Post

Try phoning Worcester Bosch (with all the details) for a part number so that you get the correct spec.
Then phone Shoreheat Ltd., Heating Parts Specialists at Bridgewater or Wolseley Parts Center for price and availability.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Howe (Honest_pete) on Monday, July 27, 2009 - 10:09 pm: Edit Post

Hi, I have been having problems all weekend with a Rayburn 480 KB MX. The thing overheated but didnt cut out until it was discovered and switched off and then it wouldent start again. I have stripped it down and re-assembled many times attempting to fault find. There is an arc and fuel in the cooker, but not in the boiler and neither ignite. I am concerned that maybe the fuel pump is not operating correctly as i unscrewed the bleed screw, switched the cooker on for it to prime before the light sensor trips it out and the fuel trickles out. Assuming it runs at 10 Bar this should surely spurt out everywhere? I am pretty certain that the ignitor units and the solenoids are working ok. Other than the relay at the bottom with the red button/light and the safety thermostats with the reset button is there anything else that could put the boiler into lockout? Also when the boiler is switched on the fan cuts in but nothing else happens and it never trips out. Is there something that i am missing? It seems strange that with fuel and an arc the cooker doesnt ignite which is making me think that it is the oil pressure. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alan Edgecock (Alane) on Tuesday, July 28, 2009 - 06:06 pm: Edit Post

Peter you say you have stripped it down an re-assembled many times attempting to fault find but you give no indication how you have attempted this fault finding.

What tests have you actually carried out?? Have you measured the solenoid voltage, checked the solenoid coil. "I am pretty certain that the ignitor units and the solenoids are working ok." Based on what?? No solenoid operation = no ignition simple as that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Howe (Honest_pete) on Tuesday, July 28, 2009 - 08:48 pm: Edit Post

Hi Alan, the certainty was based on the fact that the cooker electrode was producing an arc, whereas the boiler electrode wasnt. I swopped the boiler and the cooker solenoids over as they are the same and there still wasnt an arc from the boiler, so i then swopped the ignitor units around, noting that they were the same and once again there was an arc in the cooker but not in the boiler and neither are firing up. In your past experience is there anything which could cause this to happen? Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Nesbitt (John11668) on Tuesday, July 28, 2009 - 10:02 pm: Edit Post

Another piece of missing info here!

The MX range have two burner options ( Nuway and Ecoflam) which do you have?

A common fault on the Nuway version is a failed pump coupling which could account for no fuel delivery, but some pumps actually require a back pressure before fuel is released.

A boiler burner which runs continually without ignition or lockout may suggest a duff control box. Your reference to the relay box Peter, gives away the fact (with the greatest of respect) that your experience of oil burners is not wide.
Being brutally frank the Rayburn 480 series is not the one to practice on. Many experienced engineers give them a wide berth.

Also,Is it possible that you are not the first engineer on site? If so walk away you never know what mischief has been introduced by others


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernie Beaumont (Berniex) on Wednesday, July 29, 2009 - 03:47 pm: Edit Post

It sound to me like Pete Howe is asking about his own Rayburn and is doing a bit of diy. Sorry Pete but I'm going to pass.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dean talbot (Ardvark2345) on Friday, August 07, 2009 - 10:06 pm: Edit Post

I am surprised that people have a problem with the 480KB. They are so accessable for servicing and fault finding compared with the bl**dy Stanley I visited today. Its a Brandon 80K twin PJ and was locking out. It took an age to extract the burners and after servicing, cleaning and nozzle changes I fitted it back and tried to restart with oil guage fitted. It continued to lock out but not before I had corrected the oil pressure to what it should be. I am going back on Monday to recheck the burners from top to bottom - the oil filter seemed okay as did the photo resistor maybe its the control box, combustion is at the level in the manufacturs manual? Any ideas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Nesbitt (John11668) on Friday, August 07, 2009 - 11:34 pm: Edit Post

Sounds like you are guessing Ardvark.
Be analytical


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Craik (Bob_the_boiler) on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 12:52 am: Edit Post

Hi Dean,

As Mr Nesbitt says a more constructive approach may be in order.

The Stanley range of cookers are generally "robust", I find them easy to work on and are fitted with, more or less, standard Ecoflam burners.

On the other hand, the Rayburn 400 series, in their many marks and ratings are, shall we say, absolute "pigs".

Indeed, on another forum, a number of years ago, an engineer suggested that in order to work on Rayburn 400 series cookers it was advisable to have access to, good and preferable free, legal advice.

Exactly which burner are you having problems with.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernie Beaumont (Berniex) on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 08:39 pm: Edit Post

Rayburn 400 series:

One of the reasons I work on them is it is a small market which is less price driven than some other work. And at the moment there are some cut-throat tenders. Clearly some firms are doing work at cost in the hope of staying in business.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Nesbitt (John11668) on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 09:47 pm: Edit Post

Lots of plumbers out there now masquerading as "engineers " too


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By derek wilford (Kered1) on Sunday, May 02, 2010 - 07:27 pm: Edit Post

I had a 3-K oil loop which emptied the fuel back into the tank each time the boiler shut down. A Worcester Bosch engineer said the loop was faulty and as it was new return it to the supplier. When the replacement was fitted this too emptied the fuel back to the tank. Unless this second loop is faulty can anyone suggest any other reason for the problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernie Beaumont (Berniex) on Tuesday, May 04, 2010 - 03:39 pm: Edit Post

Are the connections to the Tiger loop correct? How far & high are you lifting? Are there leaks in the oil line itself (which could include any fittings)?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Nesbitt (John11668) on Sunday, May 09, 2010 - 08:31 pm: Edit Post

The oil in the loop should stay in the loop. unless the Non return valve is faulty