Current Debate

Gas News Forum: OLD OIL FORUM: Vaporising Appliances [OFT 102]: Current Debate
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Brooks (Croydoncorgi) on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 12:37 pm: Edit Post

Yes - but...
Pumped storage can only deliver back much less energy than put in and can only operate for a few hours at most.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Craik (Bob_the_boiler) on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 05:25 pm: Edit Post

True,

But you pump up when demand is low on the grid then use the turbines at peak loadings or spikes.

As John said when the kettles go on at half time.

Cheers

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trevor Roberts (Trevor49) on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 07:01 pm: Edit Post

Am I being paranoid or do I imagine that the oil quality questionaire which only two days ago was downloadable from the OFTEC website has been pulled ?

Additionally, looking at the new potterton website I note with interest that there is not a single drop of oil anywhere ! The first rat off the ship ? or a forward thinking company ?

I had two old dears at the door two weeks ago asking me if I wanted to call in at the village hall to hear a talk on wind farms and sign the petition against the proposed wind farm which would overshadow the famous battle site at Naseby.
No thankyou, I like wind farms, I think they are the way forward.

I haven't had the local rag delivered through my door since :-)

The Naseby blue rinse maffia are on to me !

Concrete shoes n' all that :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Murdoch Mactaggart (Murdoch) on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 08:34 pm: Edit Post

Thanks for the latest messages from Bob, John and Julian.

In fact the flue is swept annually (last time was about 11 months before the problems started) and there seems to be a good draught. In fact two semi-retired engineers from the oil supplier came round to check everything out and conceded willingly that the flue draught was good. You may well be right about how good the burner is, John, but in fact it's been working perfectly well for the seven or eight years we've been here.

I recently spoke with another local supplier, Minster, who said they were familiar with the problem following on from the spec changes, that they had developed an additive for this changed fuel used in vaporising burners and had had no problems among their customer base though they were aware of them elsewhere.

The original suppliers have now emptied the tank (well, actually they were supposed to do so but left maybe 250 litres behind, an unpleasant surprise for my wife and a friend when they disconnected things to check inside and carry out some work while the tank was supposedly empty) and I'm about to order oil from Minster when I'll see if their claim is justified.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Nesbitt (John11668) on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 10:13 pm: Edit Post

Beware of additives Murdoch!

Topanol was used without detriment for many years but is now being dropped in favour of less toxic stuff. A supplier in our area has had severe problems with one which is a blue mix called "Heating Oil Treatment"

Better to do without additives


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Murdoch Mactaggart (Murdoch) on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 01:55 pm: Edit Post

Well, additive or no, the new oil from a different supplier has returned the system to the state it was in before the January delivery. It's now been running properly for about 96 hours, a welcome change after the couple of months of struggling with the other stuff. Pretty well seems to confirm the fault of the earlier oil, at least in conjunction with this particular system, ISTM.

Thanks, all, for your comments.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By robert massie (Lilyrose) on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 11:20 pm: Edit Post

Hi.I am new to the site and i am also an aga engineer.I have a major problem with one of my customers agas.Its the same old story,they had a brand new aga installed about 8 years ago which worked fine until about a year ago and now it just keeps pre carboning about 4 to 6 weeks.Customer says it reaches temperature ok and works well until it goes wrong.I went there today and the burner nipple was solid.Somebody told me that it was due to high sulphates in the oil.Is this true?Can it be tested?What can be done?She has topanol in her system.I am tearing my hair out and think she may even get rid of her aga.Any ideas would be great.Thanks Rob.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernie Beaumont (Berniex) on Thursday, June 19, 2008 - 05:25 pm: Edit Post

Robert, sounds to me like the oil, but you hint that is your opinion. What can we tell you that do do not already know?

Either you go at 4 to 6 week intervals until the next oil delivery ( from a new supplier ) or you tell the customer bye-bye now. See Murdochs problem - and solution.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Nesbitt (John11668) on Monday, June 23, 2008 - 06:06 pm: Edit Post

I would also check low fire!
If it is too low then carboning in the fitting may occur particularly if it Idles for long periods.

Clean the slit in the spool with the corner of a piece of paper first, then ( when the aga is heated up adjust low fire so that the flame just reaches the top of the shells. An occasional small tongue of blue above the shells may be acceptable.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Achman (Mcf) on Sunday, August 31, 2008 - 10:04 pm: Edit Post

Hi. New to site but would like to pick your collective brains. Asked to look at a Rayburn with a perforated sleeve conversion that occasionally burns outside the sleeves with the bottom of Rayburn turning wet with oil. It then after half an hour or so runs normally again. Oil depth is correct and has been double checked.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernie Beaumont (Berniex) on Sunday, August 31, 2008 - 11:15 pm: Edit Post

Where - & I mean exactly - is the oil tank?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Achman (Mcf) on Monday, September 01, 2008 - 08:10 am: Edit Post

Plastic tank 20ft down garden with its base approx. 4ft above burner.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernie Beaumont (Berniex) on Monday, September 01, 2008 - 03:34 pm: Edit Post

Is there any other oil burners? Just one single line? My thought was overpressure, but 4ft head on a single pipe would discount that.

Have you watched the internal oil level in the oil control? It should be constant but my guess is it's not. If you take off just the thin cover - NOT the whole top - you should be able to monitor it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Achman (Mcf) on Monday, September 01, 2008 - 08:57 pm: Edit Post

No other burners. Went again this afternoon. The oil level was fluctuating in oil control. Cannot see exactly what the problem is but have ordered replacement.

thanks for your help Bernie.
Will no doubt post message again if that doesn't solve problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernie Beaumont (Berniex) on Monday, September 01, 2008 - 09:13 pm: Edit Post

Looks like a faulty oil control to me too. Replacement should solve the problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernie Beaumont (Berniex) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 07:40 pm: Edit Post

Customer has an Aga about 35 yards from the oil tank, oil line is 10mm. The tank is base is about 2-3 foot above the oil control (35 yards away). I suspect this gives a pressure loss so that the oil control does not react in time when on low fire and so goes out. Just looking at some notes made a long time ago I see the minimum head is 630 mm, but can not remember how to calculate a head loss with distance & pipe size. Can anyone nudge my addled brain?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Nesbitt (John11668) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 10:32 pm: Edit Post

Head loss at Aga flow rates would be negligible Bernie.

Could be all sorts of other things!
Mucky spool,
Another appliance grabbing the supply
Low fire too low,
OCV too low

If the tank has not been a problem in the past then you need to look further.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eamonn (Surfing1975) on Monday, November 10, 2008 - 08:14 pm: Edit Post

hello,

hope i am not crashing someone's thread here but i cannot find the create new topic button.

anyway, I am having huge problems with a rayburn nouvelle mk2 (no suprise there). The boiler side will not light going to lock instead every time.

the broyce relay kicks in the fan and the relay allows this cycle to run for 60 seconds with the glow plug heating up. Then the pilot solenoid clicks on and a very good pilot light is established, the thermocouple gives me a reading of 20 - 23 dc when hot. After 3.5 minutes i expect the Hawco relay to boost the signal from thermocouple and allow the main solenoid to come on. This is were i am stuck. Goes to lock out everytime. I have checked the main solenoid by wiring it straight to the mains and it work fine and indeed lights the boiler via pilot light.

I obviously suspected the hawco relay and purchased one at great expense, and guess what...

Have spoke to rayburn who advise hawco relay still at fault. cleaned spade connectors on relay base unit aswell.

Any thoughts? i am the third engineer on this job and i am furiously eager to succeed.

thanks in advance for any thoughts


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernie Beaumont (Berniex) on Monday, November 10, 2008 - 08:59 pm: Edit Post

I suggest check the thermocouple connections. If nothing amiss try a new thermocouple. From your description it looks to me like the Hawco is not switching, the only question then is why.

The Hawco itself is two relays operated by the thermocouple. You could test it using temp connections and a blowtorch on the thermocouple.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernie Beaumont (Berniex) on Monday, November 10, 2008 - 09:01 pm: Edit Post

Additional thought:

Might also be worthwhile testing for continuity.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Nesbitt (John11668) on Monday, November 10, 2008 - 11:13 pm: Edit Post

I Agree with Bernie that the problem is thermocouple /Hawco related .

Replacement Hawco would seem to rule out a faulty one !

20 -23dc????? micro volts?, millivolts?, positive or negative???.
Anything around 14 millivolts should pull in the Hawco provided it is of the correct polarity!
23 mV would suggest pilot proven !

Could someone have crosswired the thermocouple ??


Providing output and polarity are correct the Hawco should pull in as soon as the thermocouple voltage proves the pilot at around 14-16mv. ( it does not wait for the 3.5 min which is purely a lockout timer )

If this voltage does not cause the Hawco to operate (and providing you are confident the hawco is OK) then as Bernie says look at continuity between the TC and the Hawco terminals. On this model there is no circuit board so the TC voltage should be measurable at the Hawco terminals which should allow you to check continuity (and polarity) through to there.

The polarity is marked on the connectors.

Good Luck!






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eamonn (Surfing1975) on Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 07:46 am: Edit Post

Yes, sounds like good advice guys. Look forward to trying sometime this week admist the rest of the caos.

will report back soon
cheers


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eamonn (Surfing1975) on Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 10:34 pm: Edit Post

Bernie & John

I am impressed. Dropped in today and tested for polarity between tc and hawco, someone had wired up the tc wrong. As soon as i removed the tc the main solenoid kicked in. So changed wiring and all is now fine.

Been going on for months. phew!!!

thanks again for your help, so many people pretended to know the answer and then i find this site, happy days

cheers


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Craik (Bob_the_boiler) on Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 11:18 pm: Edit Post

Lots of brownie points here gentlemen.

However, well done.

Eamonn is a happy bunny.

I don't think I would have got it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Nesbitt (John11668) on Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 06:37 pm: Edit Post

For anyone who is not already aware !!!!!,

Replacement New Hawco units are available from Control Services for just over £100
They refurbish old ones for about half of that.

Tel 01543 450040


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eamonn (Surfing1975) on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 02:21 pm: Edit Post

WOW!

When i eventually found someone who could replace the now obsolete relay they wanted £165 + vat, after some laughter i still paid 150.

I shall take care not to lose that number

cheers John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Catchpole (Paultheg33k) on Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 10:31 pm: Edit Post

Hi all,

I've an Esse Sovereign C, which I've just installed onto my narrowboat in the last couple of weeks, to replace a solid fuel burner and gas cooker.

It's apparently set up for 35sec oil, and I'm hoping it'll run on the red diesel from the tank. This is a wickless pot burner with two rings and a diverter plate above it.

Initially, I had oil to the level in the BM30 float chamber, but none coming out of the output, irrespective of manual setting. Investigating further showed that the actuator pin, presumably driven by a long-since-removed stat was seized in the full-on position, and that someone had adjusted the high fire down to nothing to work against this.

I managed to free off, and move the pin up, out of the way, and set the high fire to something in the middle of its range, possibly very low, with the only measuring implement I had to hand. The low fire screw is missing too - is this normal on a stat-fitted one?

I can't find a reference for the base figures for this, but comparing the valve min and max to the quoted Aga/Rayburn ones on here, it looks rather high. The valve is marked as minimum 5.5 to 22.something cc/min. The max output to water is 23000 BTU, plus what to cooking, I don't know! I'd guess that this would be 15cc/min by heat output, but what would you think?

Currently, high fire is definitely low, on running, and low fire goes out... :-)

Any help appreciated!

PC


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Nesbitt (John11668) on Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 11:03 pm: Edit Post

Such a badly abused oil control is better replaced anyway. The 5-22cc rating would apply to 28 sec Kero. I do not know whether the spool would be different to give the correct rate for Gas oil. I would suggest you speak to Don Redfyre cookers who should be able to supply a properly calibrated bit of kit for not a lot of outlay! They do have experience in heaters for narrow boats too. Ask for Gus Lowman.

I would not have thought that the Sov "C" would be the best type of appliance for a narrow boat either .
The draught requirement is usually 0.06 to 0.1 inches wg with the upper figure being preferred.
Usually a 4.5metre stack would be required for this. Don may be able to advise there too .

Have you spoken to Esse themselves ?
David Randalson would be the Authority there!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Catchpole (Paultheg33k) on Wednesday, December 03, 2008 - 07:25 pm: Edit Post

Thanks John, for the reply...

So the 22second max rate would have been typical of these when new then? Does the pot burner support levels that high, when the wicked aga burners seem to be happy only with 8cc/sec?

I agree on the flue, but that seems to be the case for almost all stoves fitted to boats. It's near impossible to fit a solid fuel stove to a boat now, even the little typically-fitted ones, on a new build, as the Rec. Craft. Directive means that manufacturers recommendations need to be adhered to, including flue length. I'll have to see how I get on, the same length flue on a solid fuel stove drew like anything, but we'll see.

I'll contact Don Redfyre about the oil valve for 35sec, as you say, it'll probably be easier than trying to work around the problems of this one.

Do you know the purpose of the dual boiler tappings? The installation manual only briefly mentions them, and blowing through them suggests that they're simply connected into the same water jacket as the main 1" rear tappings. To that end, I've blanked the front tappings and just connected the rears, as I really do only need two for the simple system in use.

Haven't tried Esse themselves, partly as a result of being put off hearing of bad experiences with their customer service team, although I admit I should really give them a go. I need two towel rail brackets for it and I guess they'd be the only supplier.

Is the hotplate rope conventional stuff to replace - mine's gone flat, and I've breathed a little life into it with a bead of heat-resistant silicone underneath for the moment?

Cheers,

PC


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Catchpole (Paultheg33k) on Wednesday, December 03, 2008 - 07:30 pm: Edit Post

Blog with pics and waffle, concerning the cooker, up at: Blog

Sovereign C

Cheers,

PC


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Craik (Bob_the_boiler) on Wednesday, December 03, 2008 - 09:09 pm: Edit Post

Paul, The Esse is a constant burning device and as such has no thermostatic control, this means it must be installed on an open vented system, not pressurised.

I had a quick look on your Blog and am not sure of some of the plumbing setup.

It might be to your advantage to seek some pro. advice from a plumber.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Nesbitt (John11668) on Wednesday, December 03, 2008 - 10:10 pm: Edit Post

Paul
As Bob says the info on the blog gives a lot more detail !

Unvented is a complete no no!

You must have gravity hot water, so pipes must rise continually from the (upper ) boiler flow tapping to the hot water cylinder.

Fully pumped is not an option!

As Bob says the appliance is continuous burning!
You must not allow it to raise steam for the sake of friends and family on board. It could actually be a potential bomb!

Take professional advice before you proceed further!!!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Catchpole (Paultheg33k) on Wednesday, December 03, 2008 - 11:00 pm: Edit Post

Thanks for the replies...

The circuit from the cooker via the radiators with the calorifier in parallel is vented to atmosphere - not pressurised.

The water to be heated in the tank, is pressurised, as that's the only system fitted to boats - there's no head available. The cylinder is a marine calorifier, with a PRV set at 3bar, pressurised cold to to two bar by the pump, via an NRV to avoid back-feeding the cold circuit from the hot tank water.

It's a conventional marine setup, despite the lack of gravity hot water, and I won't be the first person to install something like this - even if it doesn't meet Esse's recommendations.

The system can't raise steam pressure (although it could generate steam, indeed), on the boiler circuit as it's open to atmosphere. The main hot water may need drawing off, if the three rads can't sink the heat generated, to avoid the PRV blowing water, but we'll see.

I'm open to criticism, but the only failure mode I can see is if the pump isn't running for some reason.

Anyhow, thanks for the input.

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernie Beaumont (Berniex) on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 11:19 pm: Edit Post

Paul, at a minimum you need a heat loss circuit which works on gravity. No pumps. Some systems use a open vented cylinder, some one or more rads, often with a 'open on no power' type valve.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Nesbitt (John11668) on Friday, December 05, 2008 - 06:18 pm: Edit Post

The cooker piping also creates a massive airlock with no natural vent!
one of the reasons for the four pipes is for two circuits (one gravity which will vent naturally) and one pumped

As you say the aga only needs 8cc
Esse , Cleo and others of similar boiler output use up to 22 but you will never be able to turn it that high without a high stack!
Doesn't surprise me that it smokes!
It will surprise me more if you get it working without smoke. You will get sick of cleaning it out.

Silicon is not suitable for hotplate temperatures, Not even the High temp stuff, nor is it suitable for the flue.

It seems a bit pointless Paul ,to come requesting advice and when given sound advice at a time when you are still able to benefit from following it, you dismiss it because you seem to think you know better!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eamonn (Surfing1975) on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 08:03 pm: Edit Post

paul,

You should definately check out this link

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JmJoyuUJj2Q


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By frank sweeting (Effsweet) on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 06:16 pm: Edit Post

Hi guys,
First post here so forgive me if it all goes a bit wrong (the posting)
I have a Titan LP1200 tank the contents of which I believe has got "kerosene bug"
I'm intending to solve this by pumping the tank contents out & through a filter returning the output to the tank.
I want to pump out from the bottom (in case of water contamination). What sort of pump would you guys use?
I'm thinking of a peristaltic pump, or a small submersible 12volt Amazon.
Pump suppliers claim you need an ATEX rated pump, but with a flash point of over 38 degrees C (at least) I'm not convinced.
Any opinions or advice as to how you do or would do it would be welcome.
I understand & accept the disclaimers you may feel the need to add to your opinions.
I can easily expand on the problem if you need more info. TIA: Frank


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Nesbitt (John11668) on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 09:32 pm: Edit Post

Hi Frank

What do you mean by "kerosene bug"
What problems are you having!
Can you test for water contamination (detecting paste)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By frank sweeting (Effsweet) on Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 06:14 pm: Edit Post

John, thanks for your interest.

"Kerosene bug": the "diesel bug" is well documented here www.shell.com/static/nz-en/downloads/protecting_your_fuel.
I believe the same thing can happen at a kerosene/water interface where algae/bacteria/fungi can grow, there aren't many references to "kerosene bug" but several about AVTUR/jet fuel & poor storage. Topanol is sold as an domestic kerosene additive that among other things is biocidal - it may kill them but it doesn't remove them.

For 10years I had a Titan LP1200 plastic heating oil tank with Atkinson Tankmaster valve/sightglass with no problems - the Tankmaster filter was never changed in that time. The tank then split along the top horizontal rib & Titan agreed to a new FOC tank after a lot of excuses (They dont suffer thermal stress or UV degradation alledgedly). This was installed with a new Tankmaster by the local Titan agent.
The oil tank feeds a Boulter PJet HW & CH boiler & downstream of it is a Rayburn fitted with an 8" Don vaporising conversion.
Since that replacement I have been experiencing Tankmaster filter problems, firstly white debris (solids), black debris (solids)& now black slime. Tankmaster filters are 50 micron. The last replacement filter blinded sufficiently to starve the Rayburn in 75 days between October & January, I estimate fuel usage has been 1200 - 1400lmax in that time.
Since the Titan tank was replaced I have had to change the PJ pump internal filter screen as the nozzle had stopped atomising (nozzle filter had obvious black solids in it too) so the boiler wouldn't fire. (Took a while for me to think of fuel problems & find out all the problems vaporising Rayburns suffer mainly from posts here - thanks) The Rayburn's BM OCV filter was checked at this time & was clean.
I know that the Titan tank is high enough so that the Rayburn is not fuel starved when I can accept 1000l of kerosene & the boiler is demanding fuel at times of peak heating demand. I have only once found the slit in the BM OCV - do you call it a sleeve valve? to be part blocked with very fine particulates.
When supplied the replacement Titan tank had footprint scuff marks over it so I can't be sure it was clinically clean inside. I know from inspection it appears to have a floc at the bottom although samples of kerosene at top level are clear on inspection.
This replacement tank also has a factory bodged air inlet to "allow kerosene vapour to be dispersed" - new OFTEC Regs. So it is possible that humid air in the tank condenses overnight leading to possible water build up in the tank. This venting system also allows strong winds to generate waves in the tank which could re-suspend solids that settle at the tank bottom. (Although your friends at OFTEC say they have never heard of this(!) but I've watched the ripples!
So my solution is to pump out from the bottom storing the first say 100 -200l (or whatever the volume is below the Tank drawoff, I'll check my sums)& to recirculate the kerosene through a filter back into the tank. ie DIY Kerosene Polishing. There are several commercial outfits doing "diesel polishing" but they don't call back when you say do you do "domestic heating oil polishing"(!)
re Detecting paste - I dont have any. I prefer not to smear paste on a dirty stick & shove it down to the tank bottom. Although the crew that changed the tank used it before pumping out to a holding tank using IIRC what I'd call a frame mounted petrol engined water pump.

The problem is not urgent but I've decided I need to address it this summer (I didn't last summer & it's been a bigger problem this winter) when I dont need either the Boiler or the Rayburn & when my tank is likely closer to empty than full.

Is there anything I've overlooked? Is there a simpler way to "polish" the fuel.

My other thought is an in line "canister Diesel fuel" filter, because they have a much larger filtration area than the about 10sq cm filter in the Tankmaster but I'm not sure if they will operate with say 15cm head?

As ever, TIA for any hints/ suggestions/ advice you may have: Frank


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Brooks (Croydoncorgi) on Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 07:55 pm: Edit Post

I think your link to Shell NZ should have .pdf on the end of it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By frank sweeting (Effsweet) on Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 09:12 pm: Edit Post

John,

thanks, yes it should!

The link to the Shell info is
www.shell.com/static/nz-en/downloads/protecting_your_fuel.pdf
& it tells the world about:

"Protecting your fuel

Some key facts about
microbial contamination
of diesel (commonly
known as diesel bug)"

Sorry guys: Frank


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Nesbitt (John11668) on Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 11:10 pm: Edit Post

Further to remarks on your Agacentral posting frank, we do see microbial contamination in a water surface in kero but have never known this alone to stop a Don Conversion. But where you have two appliances pulling throug a single filter , when the filter gets even slightly choked the boiler will starve the cooker .

Throw away the tankmaster element . Fit a 4" deep Crosland filter bowl in the line to the boiler and a separate 2" deep one on the cooker line . Then run the tank low and look closely at what is in the bottom . If necessary you can run it empty though the filters and deal with the sludge in the bottom when you only have a small quantity to handle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By frank sweeting (Effsweet) on Tuesday, February 03, 2009 - 04:35 pm: Edit Post

John, thanks for your pragmatic wise advice.

Please indulge me while I think out loud. I completely agree with paragraph 1 sentence 2, this is now my experience. My notes tell me Rayburn - Don oil conversion installed 31/10/96, followed by PJ Boiler installed 30/10/97. The Boiler was teed off the existing Rayburn fuel line within the bungalow boiler cupboard & the T to the Boiler fitted with a maintenance gate valve. Rayburn fire valve was moved from outside the bungalow to downstream of the Boiler within the Boiler cupboard. As previously posted above, I had no problems until a replacement Titan tank was installed on 07/09/06.

I've already considered filtration area (ca 10sq cm) in a Tankmaster) to be small & thought that a larger filter would be desirable.
To filter both streams individually thus allowing full gravity head to the Don conversion I would have to instal both "Canister" filters inside the building. I could do this in the boiler room but I guess a 4" deep filter needs 4" of ground clearance to change the filter cartridge?

I would much prefer not to have filters inside the bungalow because of the spill/smell potential. My wife's already picked up on that without my prompting!

Ergo the answer must be: Cut existing external fuel line on the bungalow side of its buried section, insert a T, add 4" & 2" Crosland Filters to the T arms & run a completely new oil pipeline to either the boiler or the Rayburn. That's got the filters outside the bungalow - all it needs is another hole in the outside wall for another 10mm od oil feed pipe into the Boiler cupboard

One last question: Sogefi/Crosland tell me the 18489 type filter "strains" down to 10 - 15 microns, that's significantly better filtration than a Tankmaster filter (or a deLaval/Danfoss PJ nozzle). The Sogefi web site is dreadful to get detailed info about their product from. Would your educated guess or experienced opinion think that I might "get away with" a 4" deep filter on the tank outlet only & not get fuel starvation at the Rayburn as the filter begins to blind? It's a lot simpler to install 1 4" filter at the tank than to do than the "proper job" outlined above.

TIA for any further comment you or others may have.
Best wishes: Frank


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Nesbitt (John11668) on Tuesday, February 03, 2009 - 05:29 pm: Edit Post

It will certainly be better than what you have now although you will not know when the filter is blocked until the rayburn gives trouble.

You could do as you suggest and just diligently change elements every year or so ( they are not expensive )

Ideally the fire valves should also be outside the building and plan A would also give you the opportunity to put this right , but plan B is the will allow significant improvement without much work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By frank sweeting (Effsweet) on Wednesday, February 04, 2009 - 10:11 am: Edit Post

John,

Thank you for your comments they are most helpful.

I agree completely with your comment about the Rayburn fire valve (should be without the building) thanks for pointing out that Plan A would allow that to be done.

I hadn't considered doing that because, FYI & for others who may be following this thread, what I haven't said before (to try to keep posts short) was that our Boiler "Cupboard" has an external wall, two solid block walls & a 2hour fire rated door.
As a "householder" I have been very comfortable with that.

Your input has been very much appreciated: Frank


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Brooks (Croydoncorgi) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 03:48 pm: Edit Post

FYI, there was an 'Aga Saga' on BBC R4 You & Yours today (Friday). It identified the 'well known' problem with Agas, etc with vapourising burners that soot up when fed with the latest version of kerosene refined according to latest EU regs. (Didn't you just KNOW that the EU would be at the root of the problem!) Apparently, the spec forces a reduction in sulphur content but this has the unfortunate effect of raising the 'char value' - hence the carbon problem in vapourisers.

An Aga rep appeared on the programme and revealed that there will very soon be a new version of the burner which will be able to handle the new-spec oil. Tough luck for anyone who just shelled out 7000 on a new old-type Aga - they'll have to pay for the retrofit! Good news is that there will be retrofit kits for older models too.

Sorry to bore you all if this is in fact old news.