Strange how someone would post a question on a web site "I smell gas what should I do"
Local guy smelled gas before he went to bed and again in the morning, he was late for work so did nothing.
10mins after he left, the idiots house blew up.
I think thats Gods way of punishing idiots
Hmmmm, maybe Eliot didn't read my original post properly. I had turned off the supply (& ventiliated the house) and my plumber had done all the checks, but found no trace of gas. Transco have thoroughly checked the property & surrounding areas and there is absolutely no evidence of gas. I was asking if there was any particular thing that could be CONFUSED with the smell of gas.
I think it is very arrogant to go around calling people idiots.
So, if there is anyone out there who can give me some advice rather than insults, I would be very grateful. I have had suggestions of cats wee and decomposing vegetables, but we dont have a cat and have never cooked in the kitchen!
Hope someone can help.
the only other smell which I have seen confused with gas, was the smell from a recently departed mouse under a kitchen cupboard, when said was removed the smell seamed to go away and the house holder had gone through all the tests as stated even down to closing the room up for a day and night including all vents and then testing with a gasgo seeker.
Tom, I don't suppose there is an old gas pipe somewhere in the kitchen that has not been capped. The smell of gas can hang around for months in old disconnected iron pipe. That's why we are required to plug/cap them if they are taken out of service.
I have to agree that Tom’s posting was not interpreted properly and would suggest that in the circumstances outlined he appears to have done all that reasonably could be done and had in fact proven there was no escape of gas.
That said the offending bit of Eliot’s posting clearly related to a wholly different scenario.
Curiously I’ve been to see a wonderful Lady this morning (a doctor) I’ve known for years who seems to have a fatal attraction for problems. Murphy’s Law; If it can go wrong it will go wrong. This time it was a blocked loo. Relatively new loo and perfect connection. She phoned last night at 23.00. As she has three loos I suggested she leave it and it would clear itself. Naturally it did not. A quick plunge with a rubber plunger did the trick but if it had been anyone else it would have cleared itself. No foreign objects in pan.
I spent time last year trying to locate a ‘funny’ smell in the kitchen. At her insistence I got under the floor as well but no problems. Found the problem on another matter. She had put a Jardinière in the sink unit and had left water in. Plant leaves etc were decomposing. The smell was vile when I disturbed the Jardinière.
But I had a guy one Xmas. He’d apparently demolished a fireplace in the summer and a lump of concrete dropped under the floor onto a lead joint. Minute (smell of) gas leak. Gradually got worse he said and called Transco out two nights before Xmas eve. Shocked that they simply disconnected gas.
He went to work following morning and phoned me after 6.00 when he got home. Can’t remember where he got my name from as I do not advertise gas and have two sets of business cards, one with gas on and one without. Quoted him £60 subject to caveats and he screamed.
As everyone will know there could be other leaks, however minor, on gas pipework elsewhere. The regulations permit Nil pressure drop on pipework, new or old. I asked him to think about it and hung up then went out immediately to see someone.
I am a consumer with a boiler problem. I hope this is the appropriate forum.
I have a 4-year old Vokera Linea 24 (under extended warranty) and live in a hard water area. Recently had a problem with 07 code _and_ intermittent HW problem and called out Vokera. Engineer changed thermistor, failed to cure hot water problem then came back and changed heat exchanger (our 3rd), stating that system needed power flushing.
System worked fine for 3 days before HW problem appeared again. Symptom is that when HW is run, boiler will maintain HW at around 27 degrees while burning for 7 seconds, going off for 7 seconds, then burning for 7 seconds and repeating this cycle indefinitely. No cutouts, no error codes, heating works fine. An independent boiler engineer suggested this may be the ignition unit.
Is it possible that this is a heat exchanger problem after only 3 days, and has anyone seen this before? I'm reluctant to spend three hundred quid on having the system flushed to find that that wasn't the problem, particularly when this process seems to be something of a con. It doesn't have the same symptoms as our previous heat exchanger problems, which usually resulted in hot-cold-hot-cold shower water.
Consumers are always welcome but as stated above on the announcement we cannot accept postings to trouble-shoot appliances. I note you have already posted the same problem at www.idhe.org.uk forum so we’ll leave it to them to consider the matter.
That said there are clear and apparently serious consumer issues which is of concern. I assume from what you have written that all work has been done by manufacturer’s own engineer and you are still under extended warranty that you have paid for.
If you are still under extended warranty that you have paid for then check your entitlement under any agreement. If the system (not the appliance) is allegedly causing the problem then ask them to confirm that in writing, detailing their diagnosis.
There are companies who will undertake to test your system water for a small fee to confirm the status of the system water. I assume therefore that the boiler was fitted to an older system.
System flushing is only a con if it does not need doing. When a new boiler is fitted it always needs doing as modern boilers will not tolerate abuse that old boilers routinely endure. This is especially true of High Efficiency (condensing) boilers as any existing system inhibitor may be incompatible with materials used in HE boilers.
If you do not know anyone locally you could ask the IDHE for an appropriately experienced engineer for a second opinion.
As an aside my neighbour was recently puzzled to see two pairs of wires entering a socket outlet back box and posted on a DIY site as he wanted to alter socket outlets before laying laminate floor. He was tickled pink with quick explanation offered but when I called I noted he had used circular white 1.5mm twin and earth cable. Recommended an electrician but he did not want to delay any longer. The best intentioned advice can lead to serious errors.
I want to design & install my own central heating for my 3 bed semi-detached (built 1932) in Northwich, Cheshire and I intend to buy all the appliances, radiators, equipment and materials and do all the donkey work (e.g. wall drilling, floorboard lifting, equipment mounting, control wiring, pipe running and installation etc.).
I am 55 and my background is; am a time served instrument artificer (in the days of pneumatics & hydraulics) in the field of industrial instrumentation and control. I re-trained some 25 years ago in computer technology and along the way acquired an honours degree + MIEE + CEng.
I know that I am not qualified to install and commission gas supply piping.
I would like to ask if anyone would be interested/willing to act as my technical consultant for a suitable fee of course with a remit to :-
· Initial face to face meeting and site inspection (site visit required)
· Oversee my design documentation & equipment schedule (submission and review feedback of design documentations via e-mail)
· Provide technical input to my design & equipment schedule (again via e-mail)
· Inspection of my completed installation works, provide criticism and advice where needed and to re-inspect any remedial work carried out (site visit(s) required).
· Connect and test gas supply piping from Transco meter to boiler and at least three other appliances (site visit required).
· Inspect, flush, commission & certify boiler installation. Inspect, commission and certify the living room inset gas fire installation (site visit required)
E-mail contact details as below, telephone number and address supplied on request.
[Editor - Regret we cannot accept this type of request. Consumer advised to contact one or more of the relevant trade and professional associations listed on the website.]
Outline spec to date.
1) House is cavity wall insulated, double glazed all round & fitted with loft insulation.
2) Boiler is to be wall mounted, natural gas fired and condensing type.
3) Initial heat loss calculations for the whole house have been done and a boiler in the modulating range approx 7kw – 15kw would suit. Possibly use a Celsius 25 (I like the idea of being able to run the flue to the eaves to minimise ‘pluming’ aesthetics) but others are under active consideration.
4) Boiler to be installed in the coal store (this is built into the house and is only reached via an external door. Coal store dimensions (mm) are approx 1400 high x 1000 wide x 1000 deep. The existing door and frame will be removed and replaced with new and closer fitting frame and door. Condensate drain will be fitted and run to an external gully approx 3500 mm from coal store. This coal store will then become the boiler room.
5) Wherever possible the CH pump, valve manifolds etc will be installed within the boiler room.
6) Transco meter to be supplied and fitted (by Transco) semi-inset and adjacent to the boiler room (ex coal store).
7) 6 off Myson radiators (possibly the Select range) all with lockshield valves & TRVs fitted to most rooms.
8) System to be fully pumped with 2 zone control. I lean towards separate downstairs and upstairs radiator heating circuits. Service (isolation) valves to be fitted as needed for isolation and maintenance purposes.
9) System control will be fully programmable and my preference leans towards high specification.
10) Bathroom towel rail/heater to be used as boiler bypass.
11) Cold water tank and F&E cistern to be mounted in loft.
12) I will use the existing indirectly heated HW tank which is approx 6 years old (intend to have capability to fit a separate solar heated coil at a later date or use separate solar powered HW tank to pre-heat water input to main HW tank).
13) Inset gas fire to be fitted to living room. The intention is to use the existing chimney as the flue for the gas fire. The chimney is currently in use serving an open coal fire.
14) A gas supply point for an inset gas fire is to be fitted to dining room. The intention is to use the existing chimney as the flue for the gas fire. This gas fire will be fitted at a later date.
15) A gas supply point for a gas cooker is to be fitted. Note that an electric cooker is currently in use and this will be replaced at a later date with a gas cooker.
16) Due regard will be given to installation, access and maintenance for all equipment and I would aim to better the manufacturers recommendations wherever possible. All manufacturers installation documents will be available.
17) Target date for completion is end of September 2004.
The only place to obtain the name of an appropriately registered gas installer is http://www.corgi-gas-safety.com using their online database.
We also support a list of recognised trade and professional associations in the Library, including the www.idhe.org.uk where you may find someone willing to co-operate with your venture.
I would have no qualms co-operating as described but that is not the problem. You must approach a known qualified installer. We have no control over who might respond to your request and for your protection have removed the contact details.
Many thanks for your reply. I appreciate your comments and will accept your advice.
For information, I posted my request on your board because I have been reading the board over the past few weeks and gained a perception of a discussion forum that promoted good engineering practice amongst like minded professionals.
I sent you a message on May 8th about my problem.After your reply,I thought I would get a second opinion from british gas.
What a different visit! the first man was there for about 20mins-the new one 1.5 hours!
He didnt think the old piping buried in the concrete floor would be a problem as he thought a condensing boiler with an expansion tank was the answer,not a sealed system.Also he was happy to join the hot water pipes through the ceiling space-so the pipework wouldnt show.He suggested the boiler that Bosch make specifically for british gas.He also gave me a detailed price that is £1800 LESS than my plumber quoted.He said all their plumbers are Corgi registered.
So-two completely different opinions.I would be gratefull for your comments.Thank you
Our sources suggest BG are keen to engage with as many new customers as possible, so their increasingly diverse portfolio of services can be offered to those customers.
The principles do not change whoever the contractor. Have your good news committed to print and if you decide to follow through with 3 star service – recommended – check also what that includes and does not include.
Before privatisation BG created CORGI who are now the (independent) body currently approved by the HSE to oversee gas safety and may be found at www.corgi-gas-safety.com.
David I do wish you luck, I really do.
My history in industry is not that far off yours, having similarly "retrained and acquired". Stepping out into plumbing and heating, presented quite a shock in terms of the lack of the spectrum of disciplines and tenets so cherished in the industrial/military professional engineering arena. All too often there's a chasm of ignorance between the two, with attempts to connect, prompting bewilderment!
For example, there can surely be few industrial engineers who do not know what MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures) is, and means, and how it should be used. When you DO find a heating guy who understands it, he will have a very sorry story to tell indeed!
Does anyone know where I can obtain an 8mm twin entry radiator valve?
As far as I am aware (I may be wrong) they are no longer on open sale. You could try a scrap yard where they are most likely to turn up.
If you have a faulty one you could simply extend one of the pipes and have a regular valve at each end.
I'm currently tendering for a Combi and 5 radiator job, that will replace a system I helped install as a boy Plumber in 1975.
There is 8mm twin entry valves on the old system, however, I'm not sure if they are Yorkshire or Wednesbury.
Please email me and if I get the job you are more than welcome to a valve.
Thanks for the offer, I have tried to e-mail you but message was rejected. You can try e-mailing me and I will take it from there.
hi I have a potterton boiler .. after switching it , No led light on the front board by the writing of main or manual came out I checked the fuse of the mains and the 2amps fuse on the board they were ok .. is it the transformer at the back or is there any other fuses near by can any advise me of how to test please
As stated on the page announcement above:
" Consumers are invited to post a conversation and anyone may join in. We regret we cannot attempt to diagnose appliance faults through this website. "
Diagnosing faults by proxy is fraught with difficulty and something we have never done.
In a room of 5mx4m because of wall space restrictions due to furniture etc. I would like to install 3# radiators with a total output of not less than 2100 watts, the radiators being installed on 3 walls. I also think that this has the merit of ‘wrap-around’ warmth. For control purposes I intend to treat the radiators as a ‘single unit’ i.e. the radiators piped (15mm) in series with a TRV on the first radiator and a lockshield on the third radiator and service valves fitted on the intermediate piping and to balance the ‘single unit’ accordingly using the TRV/lockshield pair.
Can anybody think of any pitfalls or ‘pratfalls’ in this approach ?
I did that once with two rads, each side of a door. I think they've told me 3 times now that one rad doesn't get as hot as the other!
The question has come up a couple of times since, but I've stuck to separate trv's.
In non-symmetrical room it might be appropriate to have one or two rads giving more or less heat - where near dining chairs, perhaps.
Regarding "wrap-around" warmth, remember that warm air rises and cold falls. So for instance if you have rads opposite the windows, the circulation gives you cold feet. Current conventionm is to put rads under windows, though there's a problem where there are floor to ceiling thick curtains. A small rad by the (internal) door of a large room seems to be useful in stopping cooler draughts from a hall being felt by anyone seated nearby.
If you think about it what Chris said would be true and even more pronounced if three rads were in series.
Hot water would enter rad.#1 and give off a bit of heat; rad.2 a bit more and rad.#3 decidedly colder since whereas with a single one the circulation would be in one side and circulate accross the entire top section when connected in series, as suggested, the water can only enter the second and third rads AFTER circulating the previous one.
Better, I think, for three seperate rads connected as individuals with individual controls.
Many thanks for your advice. After consideration I will adopt the 3 off single radiator approach with individual TRV/lockshield pairs for each radiator.
May all your plumbing problems be little ones.
I thought that you would like to read a few notes on my DIY central heating system install. They are not really in chronological order as I had to work around various supply delays which is not really an efficient way of working. The notes tend to be grouped in topics and are not intended to be grammatically correct or read as a narrative – believe me I am trying to be brief !!!!. Don’t be too hard on me, I am a sensitive soul.
Used the Myson Heatloss Manager 98 computer program (many thanks to Myson – I loved the program to bits) to calculate radiator sizes and boiler size needed. Had lots of fun on the web downloading various boiler manufacturer catalogues and manuals, reading them all before picking what I thought would be best for my current and future needs. Also downloaded design briefs, regulations, guides to regulations etc. plus reading every book in my local library on plumbing and central heating or any combination thereof (when I research a subject I like to get stuck into it).
Did scale drawing of my house layout with positions of radiators marked on it to arrive at the piping routes and lengths plus fittings needed. Had fun working out the pipe sizes from pipe sizing design tables. Also used gas pipe sizing design tables for the gas line route again allowing for current and possible future needs.
Provided local plumbing merchant (central to my town) with kit list spreadsheet (complete with description, model, type, their catalogue numbers, and qtys). It took 6 trips over about 3 weeks before most of order arrived – I gave up on the rest and sourced them as and when needed in the DIY sheds, other plumbing merchants and from the RadioSpares catalogue. During the course of the install I found that I had grossly over-ordered on some fittings (i.e. speedfit pipe inserts and clips) and under-ordered on things like 22mm elbows, beats me how I got it wrong.
Used Speedfit PEX barrier pipe wherever practical. Hell of a wrestle with 22mm pipe coils in the crawl space beneath the floor boards – spent most time trying to straighten out the stuff - wished I’d bought the 3 m straight lengths instead - which I did when I ran out of the coiled pipe. You have no idea of the trouble I had trying to get hold of the speedfit pipe clip ‘stand offs’ – I wanted these so I could get the Climaflex pipe insulation around the 22mm pipe under the floorboards, local plumbing merchant said nobody bothers with these – indignantly had to tell them I wanted to embrace the Kyoto Protocol to my bosom.
Radiator flow/return circuit done using 2 pipe reverse method ( i.e. Flow to first radiator is then last return). Theory is that minimal balancing is needed as the flow/return pipework to each radiator is the same length (or thereabouts) . This was found to be true. Obviously used more materials but I was paying and it was my choice and my risk.
Boiler Flue kit – 50 mm BS5255 mUPVC as ‘specced’ for the Keston Celsius 25 boiler – local plumbers merchant claimed they had never heard of this even though their catalogue said they could get it. I ended up ordering this from ‘large’ internet supplier (they could even be global in scale) - took 6 weeks from order and increasingly strident demands before this arrived, their General Manager eventually organised it – apparently they were short on 45 deg elbows.
Made up a flow/return manifold in 22 mm copper complete with service/isolating valves, auto air vents, pressure relief and differential pressure bypass valves and using 2 port zone valves for the ground floor radiators, hot water cylinder and upstairs radiators (this last is for future expansion - I have to say I am not looking forwards to lifting floorboards upstairs to run piping in the void between the downstairs ceiling and the upstairs floorboards – I may take a view on this later). Anyway for this I bought rather than hired a 15mm/22mm pipe bender, I knew I would be taking my time using this and it would be useful for the ‘tool club’ at work. I enjoyed myself practising bending pipe and was really pleased when I managed to get 4 offset bends all identical for use on my manifold. I think it was a compliment when my daughter told me I was a ‘right bender’.
Didn’t realise how tough it is (and I am no wimp) to bend 22mm pipe even when the pipe bender was clamped in my big vice on my woodworking bench (8 off 75mm x 75mm legs, 100mmx 38mm rails top and bottom all round and fitted with 3 off 1800mm x 600mm sheets of 18mm plywood laminated together to give a 54mm thick work surface topped off with a replaceable 6mm MDF wearing surface, just try moving that bench !!) – hauling on the pipe bender I feel something in my left shoulder give way – to this day my left shoulder is still giving me gyp, I still can’t lie comfortably on my left side in bed yet but it’s getting better – must be an age thing.
When all pipework was installed it was then pressure tested (using air at 2 bar via a suitably modified car tyre footpump). No problems with any of the speedfit joints and fittings or the soldered fittings, the only leaks found were on a compression joint on a radiator and a brand new 22mm service valve that passed on the spindle.
Wiring Centre – I had a look at some shop bought ones and didn’t like them so this was made from a 225 mm square ABS box obtained from RadioSpares along with 36 off industrial terminals plus power, neutral and earth terminals (I didn’t want to use the ‘chocolate box’ type of terminal strips) and terminal rail to suit and nylon compression glands to take the incoming and outgoing cables. The terminals were arranged on two rails, one rail being for incoming cables and the other for outgoing cables with all interconnections being done between the two rails. Drew up a circuit diagram, the box was fitted to the boiler room wall adjacent to the boiler, and then installed and connected the cables. I opted for an Horstmann 3 channel programmer, I did fancy the Dataterm IHC but it only did 2 channels and adding a third channel made it very expensive.
Earth Bonding – A curious subject with contradictions becoming apparent amongst different sources generally arising from the usage of plastic pipe when married with copper pipe. I studied the article on the IEE website thoroughly and adopted that approach but even so I still added bonding as I thought appropriate to bath & basin metal taps, the HW cyclinder etc. and ran separate 4mm earth cables from these to an earthing block mounted in the bathroom and then a 10mm earth cable from the this block to the supply earth block (local to the electricity meter). I also mounted an earthing block local to the RCD 2 way consumer unit in the boiler room (this feeds the 3 off bulkhead lamps in the boiler room and a twin socket) connected via 10mm earth cable to the supply earth block. From the boiler room earthing block then 10mm earthing cables were run to (1) the gas line where it enters the boiler room and fits into a 22mm full bore isolating gas valve (2) the gas line just downstream of a 22mm compression straight through coupling – on the grounds that if this needs to be disconnected to remove the gas line section then an earth link will be maintained. Finally, 4mm earthing cables were installed on the flow and return pipes and connected to the boiler room earthing block. I know it all sounds like overkill but I feel better for it. While on this subject I found it difficult to source 25 m of 4mm earth cable in the local DIY sheds (I didn’t really want to buy a 100m coil from an electrical factor). I had to make repeated visits till I found some on a DIY shed shelf which I rapidly bought before it was out of stock again.
Hired a Hilti drill completed with 40mm, 65mm and 117mm TCT core bits for the gas pipe entry, air and flue pipes and compartment high level vents respectively through the cavity wall. Asked the hire shop how to use the thing, informed had to use rotary hammer mode. I was expecting nice neat holes with the minimum of making good afterwards. It was OK for the 40mm hole (the start small, see how it goes and work up to it method). I may as well have swung a sledgehammer at the wall for the bigger holes, the drill completely took out the bricks in the inner leaf. Oh well there’s another few hours cutting bricks to fit around the 100mm vents and cementing them in – did you know that climaflex insulation for 15mm tube makes a very good former to get cement around to provide neat 65mm diameter holes. I don’t suppose I will ever know if I would have been better off using diamond core bits instead of TCT.
Continued in Part 2
Arranged with my dual fuel supplier to get a gas line installed. Filled in the forms and faxed them back and heard nothing for 2 weeks. Phoned them up to check on progress – what forms they said, we’ve seen no forms. Right I said I will fax them to you again complete with the last fax report showing date/time stamp and telephone number they were faxed to. I will phone you in 5 minutes to see if you have got them. They got them this time and they still had no idea where the first set went to.
Eventually the Transco men arrived and started to dig up the pavement and driveway. They had some problems getting the ‘mole’ to work – it kept veering off towards my neighbour – with a bit of luck it could have drilled a hole under their house. The Transco lads had a look inside the boiler room said they wished they could do copper pipework as neatly – I had to confess to them it took me ages and they didn’t see what I threw away.
Right the Transco lads said we’re finished now – hang on a minute says I, where is the gas meter?. Oh! That has to be fitted by someone else – who? – you have to phone your dual fuel supplier to tell them the gas line and meter box is in plus the meter reference number and then they will organise a date.
What about the big hole in the pavement then ? Well that will be filled in by another squad in a few days time, another few days after that another squad will come and put some tarmac on it because it’s more efficient that way. Oh says I and then I had another Hamlet cigar.
First thing the day after my gas line and box is put in I ‘phone my dual fuel supplier asking (1) why didn’t they tell me on all the paperwork they sent me that I had to let them know when the gas line was being fitted (2) I had paid them a big chunk of money to provide me with a gas supply, meter box and a meter and that is what I expected (3) why didn’t they tell me that I had to project manage the job for them. I was told that is how they organise things and a meter would be fitted in 10 days time. Not good enough says I, what is your name – we don’t give out names – OK what is your employee identification number – we don’t give them out either - OK then what is the name and business address of your chief executive – we have a complaints department – I am not interested in your complaints department when I complain I go straight to the top. I shall find your CEOs name etc. etc. on the web. I got a ‘phone call that afternoon from my dual fuel supplier telling me the gas meter would be installed tomorrow afternoon and it was.
Talking about gas pipes – I fitted corrosion resistant yellow plastic coated 22mm copper between the external wall mounted meter box and my isolating valve internal to the boiler room using 22mm capillary fittings. Obviously I had to cut back the plastic coating by about 50mm from the end of the tube to solder it into the fitting. There must be a better way than wrapping denso tape around the soldered fittings and back over the plastic coating to make good the corrosion resistance of the tube. I pressure tested this line from the boiler cock to the meter at 250 mbar for 2 hours using a Taylor pneumatic calibrator (a bit of kit from my earlier days as an Instrument Technician), I’m happy to say the locked in pressure never even moved.
Commissioning – obviously I don’t have a power flusher – so disconnected flow & return pipes from boiler - connected hose pipe from mains tap to flow pipe and hosepipe from return pipe to drain gully. Found that my mains pressure is greater than 3 bar because turned mains tap on and the pressure relief valve (preset at 3 bar) on the flow pipe discharged water until I opened a service valve, nice to see the prv work then. Opened all service valves and zone valves. Left water to flush through and fill F&E tank from the bottom – sat in my workshop having a Hamlet cigar – wife rushes in shouting there’s water coming out of the overflow. Shut water off and carried on smoking cigar while pondering on the cause of overflow (at least that’s another bit that works). Decide to add another hosepipe to a low level drain cock (dead handy these drain cocks) to drain to gully because water inflow from mains must be beating the water outflow from the return pipe to drain, so now have 2 hoses draining to gully. Turn water back on and leave it to flush through (time for another cigar – well my last one was a bit hurried !!). Found myself patrolling the pipework feeling for leaks, listening out for odd noises (what does an odd pipework noise sound like when you don’t much experience of odd pipework noises?) After about 3 hours the noise of flowing water to drain got annoying and I was cream crackered patrolling between the boiler, along the pipe runs (including under the floor) and through into the loft and back again so I turn it off and drain the system empty and then refilled the system from F&E tank using Sentinel X300, allowed system to fill and then went round and bled radiators. Decided to leave it standing before I go live tomorrow morning after my bacon and eggs.
Going Live – Bit of an anticlimax really – turned the gas on, purged the pipework, allowed gas to dissipate while I had a cigar at the bottom of the garden. Reconnected gas line to boiler, turned gas back on and checked all joints using gas leak detection fluid. Set thermostats to max, opened zone valves manually and then plugged in and turned on. Boiler fired up, ramped up to full power (full thrutch), timed the gas rate on the meter and after about 15 minutes had to open front door, back door and French doors to let the heat out (we are not used to this amount of warmth !!). HW cylinder full of scalding water, left hot tap running which obviously allows cold water in to moderate the stored water temperature. Resumed patrolling of pipework looking for leaks. Left it running on full thrutch for over an hour. Stopped the boiler and let it cool down, drained the system and refilled same with clean water and let it run through to drain to flush it out again. Refilled from F&E tank but this time adding Fernox MB1 (couldn’t find X100 in the DIY shed). Bled radiators again and then plugged it in and turned it on. Programmed the CH programmer with times we wanted, of course these are subject to optimisation as operational requirements become clearer (don’t I just love that phrase) , set thermostats to sensible settings, turned zone valves to auto and stood back and watched. Boiler modulated itself back down to a sensible power rate. Went round and bled radiators again.
(1) Still can’t understand why we have a mix of ½” and ¾” and 1” BSP fittings on boiler, hot water cylinders and taps etc. and have to fit adaptors to get them to connect to 15mm and 22mm tube.
(2) Boiler – I had determined that I should fit an external pump (the Keston has an integral pump with an excess head of approx 0.5 m) to cater for current and future needs. I had hoped to drive this external pump from the boiler (so that it would start/stop in synchronisation with the integral pump as the boiler has pump overrun and frost protection features). There was no facility for this so had to drive the external pump direct from the start signal to the boiler from the zone valve open limit switches.
(3) Boiler – condensate drainage connection emerges as a 21.5mm OD stub, had to buy 21.5mm coupling to fit this and then pushfit 22mm plastic pipe into coupling as boiler manual says use 22mm pipe. I did ask Kelston why not have a 22mm stub – they use 21.5mm for ‘ease of removal of condensate trap for cleaning’.
Things to do –
(1) After the shakedown cruise is over then get under floorboards and complete the insulation of the radiator flow/return pipework.
(2) Arrange date for building control officer to inspect system.
(3) Make good hole in kitchen ceiling for pipework run.
Lessons I have learnt -
(1) Get all the kit together in one fell swoop. I got pi**ed off having to stop because I had run out of something or other or I had to work around some lack of material because it was still ‘on order’. On the plus side my wife now knows her way to the local DIY shed blindfold.
(2) Plan the pipe installation better and run the necessary cables in with the pipes at the same time.
(3) Get somebody else to haul on the pipe bender when its loaded with 22mm pipe or add a longer handle.
(4) Try a diamond core bit instead of a TCT core bit, I might get away with making a nice neat hole then.
(5) Go direct to Transco for gas supply, box and meter install, to cut out the middle man, at least Transco may be able to co-ordinate themselves. Having said that I was amazed that some company called Connections was a ‘go between’ and Balfour Beatty (Utilities) actually did the donkey work while Transco fitted the meter (15 minutes and only half a cup of coffee). Just how much are Connections and Balfour Beatty (Utilities) skimming of in ‘administration and management’ overheads.
(6) If I had to work at this trade for a living I would starve to death.
Thanks for the thesis.
You'd only starve if you tried to observe the same ethical principles in the face of the current grossly inequitable climate.
I’m amazed you were offered tungsten carbide tipped core bits as they went out with the ark. Try a diamond cutter (no hammer use) and you’ll be amazed with the ease. Neater, quicker, quieter and less grief off ‘er indoors.
Let us know how you get on with Building Control as that would be valuable information for us and any other competent DIYers.
You’ve reminded me to review thermal insulation for pipework, a much neglected subject. There seems to have been a little movement at www.timsa.org.uk but nothing exciting yet.
I still believe a competent overhaul and upgrade without changing the boiler would be just as energy efficient for those who cannot afford everything, and many simply cannot.
Now back to the land of make-belief, I’m about to write a paper on ethics. In researching I re-discovered a wonderful bit of sarcasm by my old mate Samuel Johnson (1709 – 1784):
“Your manuscript is both good and original; but the good parts are not original and the original parts are not good”.
Let’s see how I get on …
Just a minor point on above I was told on boiler course to use solvent weld plastic not push fit.
The plastic pipe used was originally intended for overflow use with cold water. When used as condensate pipe, which can be discharging hot water, the pushfit connections can come apart with time.
How deep did David notch his joists so the insulation fitted I wonder? Pipe bending is both easy and quick, why the difficulty with 22mm - should this read 28mm? I suggest a breaker / drill is easier than a core drill. I used to be proud of my abilaty to cut a neat hole using 18" chisel and 5lb mash hammer, but a breaker drill (Hilti or similar) is better yet.
I'm surprised you decided to add another pump. The internal one is adequate in properly plumbed systems, and its speed is controlled by the boiler to give the most efficient flow. Your external pump will screw the design nicely, I would have thought.
Presumably you consulted Keston, in which case we would like to know what they said. Please forgive me if the information is in the above somewhere, I haven't read every word!
Which ‘large’ internet supplier did you obtain the 50mm pipe from?
It is perfectly acceptable for visitors to name sources (and provide URLs) where it is clearly supporting a bona-fide posting such as David's posting.
Many thanks for reading my previous post and your responses. I will try to answer each in turn and to keep it brief.
Re Samuel Johnson quote – I like the sentiments behind my two favourites (1) Learn it right and do it right the rest of your life. Learn it wrong and spend the rest of your life trying to do it right” (Anon, but American I think). (2) “It’s a bad day when you don’t learn anything” (me).
Re Condensate connection – When faced with trying to attach 22mm pipe to the 21.5mm condensate stub I queried Keston Technical on this as follows – “Is it acceptable to use a push fit type 21.5mm straight through coupling onto the condensate connection with suitable clips/supports and use this to connect 22mm plastic pipe to?. This will then be routed outside the house to meet up with a 40mm plastic external drain downhill to a rainwater gulley
approx 5 metres away”. Their response was rapid (many thanks to Keston) as follows “The only acceptable way of connecting onto the condensate drain of the C25 Boiler is to use 22mm pipe. The reason for the slight under sizing of the connection is to facilitate removal of the trap for cleaning. You can use some LSX on the joint if required.”
Re Pipe clips & insulation & ‘notching’ floor joists – I didn’t notch any floor joists. I have a suspended timber floor on the ground floor with a crawl space underneath approx 700mm high and the pipe run is clipped to the underneath of the floor joists using proprietary standoffs for the pipe clips to give me the clearance between the joist and the pipe so that I can get the insulation around it.
Re the ‘large’ internet supplier I used for the 50mm pipe – I was trying not to use their name but I did make mention of “ could be global in scale” which implies ‘world’ hence ‘plumbworld’. I realize I should have just “published and be damned”
Re the 22mm or 28 mm pipe bending question – it was 22 mm pipe I bent. I hurt my shoulder on the first pull, I have to put this down to an overly casual approach leading to a bad pulling technique. For subsequent pulls I greased the pipe former and adjusted my technique but having half a left shoulder meant my first mistake was always ‘in front of me’.
Finally, the external pump question –
My thought processes went as follows.
The Keston manual (section 2.7.6 refers) indicates an external pump should be used if the index circuit resistance is greater than available head (of the internal pump). The flow/return circuit to my hot water cylinder is the longest run and I calculated for this one first. The tank is 167 litres hence requires 38,577 Kj of heat to raise temp from 10 degC to 65 degC. and I also wanted a reasonably rapid heat recovery time. The Speedfit installation guide tells me that for 22mm pipe it can handle 13.6 kw at 1.2 m/sec velocity with a deltaT of 11degC. Additionally the max flow is 0.295 l/sec and the headloss is 0.084 m/m.
For an heat recovery time of ,say, 1 hour I need to convey energy at a rate of 10.7 kw, this fits within the max 13.6 kw capacity of 22mm pipe. The pipe design tables in the text book I used show the parameters for copper pipe but not plastic. I measured the ID of 22mm copper and plastic pipe, for copper the ID = 19.5mm and for plastic = 17mm. This is a significant difference as csa is proportional to the square of the diameter.
Because the deltaT across the boiler and thus the heating coil is supposed to be 11degC (or thereabouts) and 1 litre of water should give up 46.2 Kj of heat to the tank to do this then I needed to shove 835 litres of hot water through the heating coil in 1 hour. This gave me an expected flow rate of 0.23 l/sec.
Fine - but how I do I find the expected headloss? So next step was to find what the water velocity is at the expected flow rate. Using the ID for the plastic pipe of 17mm then 4.405m of pipe will hold 1 litre of water. And for 835 litres of water then I need a pipe 3,678 m long. Hence 3678/3600 secs = 1.02 m/sec flow velocity.
These numbers are close to the speedfit installation guide numbers. I know that headloss m/m for pipe is not linear with flow velocity but for my purposes I had to assume it was so hence 1.02 m/sec/1.2 m/sec (speedfit max velocity) x 0.084 (speedfit headloss at max flow) = 0.066 headloss m/m at 1.02 m/sec.
My planned pipe run (in actual pipe was 13 m flow and 13 m return plus an guesstimated allowance for the heating coil in the tank of 2m gives total of 28m) then I added on the equivalent pipe resistances (1metre) for the 90deg elbows to be used (9 off flow and 9 off return gives total of 18 metres pipe equivalent) then added equivalent pipe resistances for 2 off service isolating valves and a zone valve of 0.5 m each. In total then 47.5 metres of pipe equivalent. So my calculated headloss for this circuit is 0.066 m/m x 47.5 m (pipe equivalent) = 3.135 metres which exceeds the 0.5 metre head available from the integral pump and I need to find an extra 2.6 m of head. Which is why I added an external pump.
The external pump I fitted is a Grundfos 3 speed manually selectable and the integral pump is a 3 speed automatically selectable UPS Grundfos. The boiler monitors the flow and return temperatures and controls the integral pump across its 3 speed range to best match flow rate to heat output (Keston manual section 1.1 refers). I set the external pump at its lowest speed setting and so far as I can see to date everything seems to work fine. I did fit thermometers on the flow and return pipes exiting the boiler and when boiler is on then deltaT is approx 10 degC, the Keston manual expects somewhere between 8 & 20 degC.
BUT Chris’s comment caused me to question what I thought was a ‘self evident’ supposition I made at the time i.e. when the boiler pump controller selects the integral pump speed then that particular flow as it is the input flow to the external pump will also be the flow out of the second external pump and the second pump merely boosts the pressure to overcome the headloss. I put this question to our mechanical engineering section at work this a.m. and they confirm that the external pump will add to the boiler controlled flow rate as the second pump will pull additional flow through the integral pump. Consequently the integral pump instead of, say, being set to speed 2 by the pump controller will be set to speed 1 instead. They also suggest as Chris does that the external pump is probably not needed not withstanding my calculations.
At present I am unwilling to remove the external pump as it means I would lose the expensive additive to drain and I only made up a length of straight through 22mm pipe to fit between the 22mm compression fittings on my manifold for flushing purposes. After the system had been flushed I then fitted the pump unions (complete with valves) with the pump in the middle of these. So what I am going to do is buy a pair of pump unions and make up some kind of spool piece to substitute for the pump and then take the external pump out and see what happens. Unfortunately I will have to take some time before I get round to this. I now have to figure out some kind of benchmark test for the before and after comparisons.
I apologise for the length of this post and thank you all for reading my posts.
Not quite correct!
Unless Keston have changed the design, the internal pump should be on the 3 setting. It is fully speed modulated by phase angle control. It does NOT step modulate!
The flow rate through the boiler is only critical when the maximum 24 kW output is needed. More output can be obtained at a lower flow rate if the differential is greater although Keston prefer this to be kept below 20 degrees. ( Not ideal for best condensing efficiency )
In my view the second pump is unlikely to be necessary. It is unclear if this is only on the hot water circuit. Regardless, its effect will be to reduce the advantage of the internal modulated pump. If you must retain it I suggest you partially close the pump valve to restrict the flow to give a differential of about 14 degrees.
A better solution would have been ( be ) to have used a larger diameter pipe to feed the cylinder.
I would suggest that you disconnect the electrical supply to the second pump and measure the differential with it still in place first. Also the reheat time if possible. Obviously under the same CH conditions.
What are you doing about the Benchmark Certificate which is required to satisfy the Building Regulations?
Re Benchmark Log Book – have completed this myself and will be providing this for inspection to the building control officer when s/he comes. So far as I understand from the Building Regulations 2004 Part L1 Sections 1.47 to 1.49 on my CD copy this should be acceptable to Building Control.
Re the usage of 28mm pipe – out of interest I will do the calcs for this pipe but to be honest I cannot really see me changing up from 22mm to 28mm. It was enough work to get the 22mm pipe through the floor into the bathroom and under the cast-iron bath as it was.
Re Pump Control – enclosed is copy of my query this a.m. to Keston Technical and their response.
“Hello again Peter,
I have installed your C25 boiler which I am very happy with. My family and I now have lashings of hot water and possess happy sets of warm toes.
Arising out of discussions with other interested people they have asked me a question I don't know the answer to. Hence I would be obliged if you could answer the following question.
Is the integral pump controlled as a continuously variable speed pump by using phase angle control (or similar method) or as the manual suggests by automatically selecting one of 3 speeds ?
The boiler circuit diagram seems to suggest the latter with its 5 wire connection (neutral, K2 n/o, K2 n/c, K1 com & K1 n/c on the CN11 terminal block) to the pump.
Many thanks for your time and trouble.
The pump inside the C25 Boiler is actually a standard Grundfos 15/60 unit but with our own head on it. This has advantages if the pump needs changing in future as a standard pump can be purchased and just the head changed. What we therefore do is change the pump speed electrically between speeds 1,2 and 3 and not by a continuously variable speed as you otherwise suggest.
I hope this helps.
I really have tried to cover everything and comply with all regulations and do appreciate all comments and advice.
I am not sure what Tony meant when asking your intentions regarding the Benchmark logbook.
This is intended as a certificate of compliance, signed by a competent person who is a member of CORGI, OFTEC or HETAS.
Being compleated by a non registered person is irrelevant, it has no value and would not be acceptable by the manufacturers if and when a waranty claim is made.
A point that may also be worth asking the manufacturers is their willingness to honour their 5 year guarantee on the heatexchanger as this is often dependant upon the boiler being comissioned and serviced anually by a CORGI registered engineer.
10.7 Kw to heat a 167 litre cylinder seems excessive to me. How often do you use ALL the hot water? I now understand why you used the pipe clips & insulation - good. 22mm pipe is easy to bend, without grease, you have to be doing something wrong.
Is anyone able to help
Symtoms: Cold Rads downstairs(stone cold) - Hot upstairs
Back Boiler not sure what type
Gravity fed hot Water and pumped CH
Pump has been replaced and is spinning
No air in downstairs rads water comes out of bleed valve when opened.
It has been suggested the injector tee could be problematic if the pump is running too fast????
There is water in F & E tank
If timer set to CH only and demand made for CH
pump spins up.
Down stairs rads appear to be supplied from two different points upstairs
Any thoughts greatly appreciated....
We cannot attempt to diagnose faults here (see note at top of page) but one thing we can safely ask you to do:
Try shutting off upstairs radiators (valve off one end) and see if the heat bangs through downstairs.
If that works then you'll hear some 'funny' noises and it is/was an airlock. Question is why.
No warranty supplied or implied as we've binned it.
Pump being replaced seems to be a clue. I think getting the bloke back who replaced it might be a Good Idea....
Injector tee problem sounds like clutching at straws. It's a circulation problem. Les's suggestion is the obvious first thing to try.
Ok I'm sorry for using site incorrectly but this is driving me mad.
The downstairs rads do warm up if upstairs turned off.
If any one of the rads upstairs turned on the downstairs cool down. Could this still be circulation??
I will not hold anyone to advice given and will only try what I feel confident with.
I assume the pump valves are open? Worth a check. Jammed NRV is my guess. If you understand that you will also understand what is required.
I assume a CORGI guy would be required if that is the problem as it would mean removing the gas fire?
It depends on the position of the pump, but most likely this is under the floor, so fire removal may not be required. NRV will likely be in the boxing next to the chimney brest. A good plumber could investigate the problem, but is probably going to be a RGI anyway.
I have not noticed a NRV near the pump is that the most likelt position?
I stumbled on this forum after doing a search on Google. I have found reading the discussions most interesting.
I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on something which has been puzzling me for some time.
Why is it that a gas cooker does not need to be vented to the outside? Are the fumes from the oven/burners not the same as those from a gas fire?
They are indeed the same hence potential for risk, especially from grills which according to BS7967 [not finished reading all that yet people] are especially bad on start-up. Plenty of good old C0.
At around 14 plus kW that is a hefty flueless appliance but the argument is that rarely is everything on at once. Incidentally BS 7967 asks one to study the flame picture of burners. They’ve not yet found a way to con us into buying FGA for that. No doubt they’re working on it.
In th’old days we used to use the oven to warm the kitchen by leaving the wee door open. But then we had draughts from everywhere [lately referred to as Adventitious Air].
Yes there are rules for ventilation and the idiots keep changing those rules to keep themselves in employment [notwithstanding manufacturers’ instructions].
That’s why we have to [by law] give customers scary looking forms with Not to Current Standards etc written on.
Thanks for the reply. So if I had a CO detector in the kitchen to make sure my CH boiler was behaving, it may well be set off by the wife cooking the Sunday roast?
If your boiler is a room sealed model in good order you should not need a C0 detector. If it is an open-flue model I would insist on a C0 detector being present before I would service it.
You may not need a permanent vent for a cooker, hob or grill but all standards are minimum standards and that does not stop you having one anyway.
In my opinion the British Standard for C0 detectors is inadequate, I therefore use the American Kidde with LCD which reads down to one ppm and has an event logger built in. Available ironically from B&Q.
But read instructions carefully.
To avoid the risk you could of course take your cherished spouse out for Sunday roast. However if it has been while since you did that she may get suspicious about nothing.
The thought behind the rules is that cooking is usualy for a limited time & you will will be active, coming and going. A gas fire, on the other hand, you may slumber in front of all day. Without a flue on a fire, such slumber may prove to be your last.
hi all, i'm just after some generic info BG have just been to see my worcester heatslave 9.24 bf (gc no 4731102) and tell me that parts are limited for this boiler is that true? if so whats a good replacement that will last. i've a retired partner at home almost all the time so heatings on all day in cooler times of the year and the boilers in the bedroom , so need a quiet boiler.