Archive 03

Gas News Forum: OLD GAS FORUM: Consumers: Archive 03
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Gradwell (Editor) on Monday, July 03, 2006 - 11:54 pm: Edit Post

Hang in there and hopefully our Worcester specialist will drop by.

As for replacement, we can't answer that $64 000 question.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By MP Macready (Hf400) on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 12:19 am: Edit Post

Elderly appliance not very efficient but plenty spares available generally.

BG tend to source only from manufacturer & in big quantities,when manufacturer has a waiting period to supply this large order this is flagged as problem obtaining parts


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By stephen simott (Qwilpen) on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 04:34 pm: Edit Post

thanks for that i've got the BG salesman coming tonight i'll listen to what he has to say though for now.

any further advice gratefully recieved


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernie Beaumont (Berniex) on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 10:02 pm: Edit Post

Oh, let us know what he says. Points you like, points you dislike. Always nice to learn what other salesmen are plugging.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By stephen simott (Qwilpen) on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 10:43 pm: Edit Post

He did contradict the coment above about the availability of parts , stated that their fitters would serch their laptops using the gc number and that would show parts are reducing in availability. intresing though when the guy came to service the boiler he said it was not to standard regarding the flue being to close to an opening window and the salesmann stated as i thought the position of our flue is ok ( i do hve corgi registation but only for metering )nothing esle realy just the heart-attack when he came out with the price.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Nesbitt (John11668) on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 11:12 pm: Edit Post

Why not obtain and fit your own boiler Stephen, and notify the work directly through LABC. I presume they will have to find someone to sign off the commissioning and if they themselves dont feel competent to inspectand sign off the work, surely it must be their responsibility to find an inspector who is.

I presume that to fit meters you still have to have the core gas safety elements.

Have you any comments on this procedure Les?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Gradwell (Editor) on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 10:41 am: Edit Post

Iíll respond to Stephenís posting first.

Some parts will reduce in availability as time goes on. That is inevitable and may begin with items like cabinets rather than components at the business end.

Iíve sourced legitimate parts based on their part number, long after the said boiler has dropped off all lists. That is because some parts are third-party manufactured and used on other appliances. Just one example is thermostats for ye olde Ideal Concord RS boilers [C26-527 ( 34-73-3P ) Ė Part # 10313821].

If BG [or anyone else] claim parts are not available, check with component suppliers giving as much information as possible.

Registered Gas Installers [RGI] are required to inform customers of anything that is Not to Current Standard [NCS]. What their line manager thinks or says is irrelevant. Muppet territory again. NCS items should be listed in writing. If a salesman claims something is not NCS, ask them to put it in writing also, if they dare.

I know people with flues [etc] who have correctly been told by BG that said item is NCS. The regulations apply to BG as well. How that information is delivered is a different matter. I would always point out the plain facts [in writing] as that is what is required.

Something I correctly installed 3 years ago may now be NCS in some way due to changes. Nothing to worry about unless the RGI says [in writing] that it is.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Gradwell (Editor) on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 12:19 pm: Edit Post

With all the changes we need to take a careful look at the DIY situation and this story will unavoidably get complicated.

DIY gas work is still not illegal per se. The problem that arises now is not under the Gas Safety [Installation and Use] Regulations [GSIUR] but under the Building Regulations.

It is mandatory to inform inter alia Building Control of the installation of certain gas appliances. That can be satisfied using a Building Notice [of Intention to Build] accompanied by the relevant fees.

That can also be satisfied if embodied in a full Building Control application which includes other work subject to Building Control. For example a kitchen extension.

Self-certifying RGI do not have to give prior notice to Building Control BUT it is still mandatory to inform Building Control. The most convenient way we are told is via CORGI who allegedly do it free of charge.

However, providing you are properly qualified I see no legal impediment to Building Control being notified directly by letter on completion [no fees].

A boffin at ODPM once pointed out to me that I did not have the sophisticated software used by CORGI, but as I pointed out, it is not mandatory to notify by sophisticated software. No mention of that in the regulations. He was obliged not to disagree.

However, assuming a DIY boffin pays the fees and installs a gas boiler, what then ? How will BC handle that on completion ? How will they inspect the work.

I put that question to BC sources a while back. They said they would visit and take an overall look. A perfunctory check. Then they would ask to see paperwork from qualified personnel in support of the work. End of discussion.

But if the DIY boffin is paying hefty fees then my view is that BC should arrange for their own inspection of the work, to justify their fees. Note fees and not fee. They will charge for the visit.

As I interpret the regulations, they can insist on seeing a Benchmark certificate complete to show compliance with Part L overall and only a RGI can certify Benchmark. Therefore indirectly, BC can insist on paperwork.

Therefore a priori DIY is effectively ruled out as an option.

Unless of course the DIY boffin was able to persuade a RGI to inspect the job and complete paperwork. Something I would never even consider for public liability reasons. Not because I want to hog all the work. I donít need it anyway.

There are plenty of reputable RGI who will shave a large chunk off any BG price. There are also plenty of reputable RGI who will give your existing system the kiss of life by upgrading and overhaul. I would insist on hefty insulation work as well in any such package.

If you canít afford the full monty [many simply cannot] there is still plenty you can do to cut down on energy costs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Latham (Fezzig) on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 11:55 pm: Edit Post

Sorry posted this in the appliance section before getting to the consumer link on the list ....Hi recently had ignition on a 120 changed and within weeks leaking into heat exchanger means the boiler has been declared dead by ideal Ideal have offered a replacement part + fitting for £350 or offered a replacement boiler an Isar 35 HE for £550 but I need to arrange fitting which shouldnt be a problem. Just thoughts please should I stick with the 120 or jump ship to the Isar? My installer is adamant that I would be better off with a Baxi platinum 33 dont know what the best option is I have One angry lady with two smelly babies to keep this side of cheerfull and I'm fighting a loosing battle any thoughts helpfull


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Gradwell (Editor) on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 11:17 am: Edit Post

No one can advise on questions like that unfortunately. Itís yet another lottery this subject.

The last 120 I fitted the customer took out a maintenance plan with the manufacturer at my behest. Fortunate for them, and for me. He has no complaints about the service but the cost of repairs, had it not been on a plan, would have far exceeded the cost of the boiler by now.

No doubt if Iíd done the repairs, I would have Ďabsorbedí some of that cost. Assuming of course I could have diagnosed the problems quickly, without the benefit of Ďinsideí information, which may or may not have existed [we donít know].

The whole system, a completely new one, was built by the numbers. Fully compliant. Cleaned with proprietary chemicals, powerflushed, inhibitor added, meter and regulator changed at installation by Transco [low working pressure]. Everything that could be done, was done.

Which is why I would not routinely fit boilers for fear of having my peace shattered by a phone call. We canít trust them any more like we used to. And that is a fact. Even the you-get-what-you-pay-for rule does not guarantee reliability with boilers. The simpler the boiler, perhaps the less there is to go wrong.

The last Isar I fitted, one of the originals, has been reliable except of course for crud blocking the condensate drain. That followed a period of time when problems with the Isar were well documented and subsequently ironed out.

But even crud removal has a cost implication, as well as a carbon footprint. That Isar is also on a plan so my phone does not ring.

Add up all the costs associate with the 120 during its young life and the carbon cost to the planet earth is probably far greater than if theyíd fitted a traditional boiler. Iím in no doubt about that.

One manufacturer at the www.phexshow.co.uk show on Tuesday was quoting silly figures like 98% efficiency, with the benefit of weather-compensation. I knew it was waffle. That 98% is intended to suggest extra ££ in the pocket. But what if that boiler goes down. Extra ££ in their pocket ? No mention of 98% at www.boilers.org.uk, the Governmentís database.

Much of my former training was at Baxi across a wide range. I do not know the new ranges. They do offer extended [5 year] guarantees on some boilers but you need to explore how that system works. From what they told me the list of related conditions is short, clear and indeed common sense: Check.

All will offer a minimum of 2 years guarantee now with EU alignment. Some offer more for larger customers like Registered Social Landlords and indeed sometimes, ordinary common or garden punters like me if Iím brand loyal Ė Negotiate people.

Iíve got my own to change yet and it will be a condensing boiler. Iíve never been a big fan of combi boilers but I will be fitting a combi. Times change and circumstances change. Water pressure is good [essential], has always been consistent and is unlikely to change.

Do I need to GWN that people ? Ė Although Iím legally qualified, on my own gaff surely it is a DIY job and in any case I have a prima facie right to privacy like everyone else if I so choose. DIY are exempt from GWN.

I re-piped my system a while back to make that more efficient in the light of experience and structural alterations. It was designed for and is now ready to take a combi.

On the face of it Iíd be disinclined to sling £350 after what is already shown to be a boiler that has been a problem.

I bumped into a College lecturer at the show and heís still running a Potterton Diplomat of unknown age [someone help me with that]. Entirely gravity and no electrics whatsoever employed. He winds up the time clock once a fortnight. Heís wavering now with the cost of natural gas and no doubt Ďer indoors [though he didnít mention that].

Foremost in my mind at all times when I do buy, will be to underline the need to protect my wallet from attack once a new boiler is fitted. Belt and braces will be employed to make sure I have every angle covered. Then if something does go wrong, Iíll go for the jugular; I donít take prisoners.

(a) Everything must comply with manufacturerís instructions
(b) That includes the system
(c) The system must be spotlessly clean by whatever means
(d) A magnaclean will be fitted to the system
(e) I will insist on a stainless steel heat exchanger [my choice]
(f) I will seek maximum warranty options
(g) The paperwork will be water-tight [Benchmark]

Do what Iíve done, insulate everything. Reduce the amount of time the boiler is working, and thwart the fuel price increases. Some good deals on cavity walls if you shop around or wait for summer offers. Beef up pipe lagging especially in sub-floors. Beef up roof space insulation. Mineís way above the minimum standard. Genuine cost savings can be made.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Latham (Fezzig) on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 07:27 am: Edit Post

Thanks Les unfortunately desperation kicked in and Ideal said that they could supply and fit a replacement heat exchanger within 1 week (They could have supplied a Isar within two days but I could only find one person locally prepared to fit it and they have a four week wait). This has turned out to be two weeks a chap from ideal turned up yesterday replaced the heat exchanger boiler not working. Oh well says the chap from Ideal give Ideal a call I think you will need to purchase a new burner unit and probe as well ... as for my £350 it appears I have a nice new heat exchanger. I contacted Ideal who said they would get recall to contact me but as usual they never did. I have now had four days off work (and my wife is about to stab me as this is obviously my fault!!!) I really am desperate to resolve this can anyone help at all. It has been suggested that the ideal chap may not have set the probe up corectly is this a possability?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Latham (Fezzig) on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 09:30 am: Edit Post

I have asked if I can purchase and fit the replacement burner myself however I was told that this would be illeagal is this the case?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Laukee (Davidl) on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 03:38 pm: Edit Post

Why do some condensing boilers require muPVC for the flue rather than standard waste (whatever standard might be), and what are the implications of using ABS or PVC?

BG, called out under Homecare 3* to look at a Keston C25 which is repeatedly cycling through light/extinguish, say they can't help because the flue is not muPVC. I called Keston tech support, and they say that the problem *sounds like* a blocked air, but that it is unconnected with the muPVC-ness, or otherwise, of the flue. I'm thinking BG simply can't be bothered to clear the air pipe blockage (which, admittedly will be a pain due to access) and are using the flue NCS as a get-out.

Thoughts?

David


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By chris hutt (Chrishutt) on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 07:45 pm: Edit Post

I've discussed this with Keston. They say that their product is only approved for use with PVC pipe and not with ABS, so PVC it has to be. All the relevant tests have been done with PVC.

For all we or they know, ABS may be as just as good in practice, but it hasn't been tested. However I believe that ABS has a poorer temperature resistance than PVC.

With reference to BG, surely they checked the boiler before accepting it for 3* cover? In which case, having taken your money, they can't now turn round and refuse to cover it! Demand all your payments back!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Gradwell (Editor) on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 08:37 pm: Edit Post

Rob

DIY gas work is not illegal per se but you may wish to reconsider doing so if you do not have the tools and equipment required. For an official opinion on that subject visit www.corgi-gas-safety.com


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Brooks (Croydoncorgi) on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 09:59 pm: Edit Post

There are all sorts of flue options that are disallowed because a manufacturer chose to get his boiler certificated on only the options he thought were essential (or,in the case of Keston,just one option total!)

It would be GREAT if Keston had tested flexi-flues that would go easily up old chimneys - they certainly exist. But Keston didn't and we're stuck with good ole mUPVC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Laukee (Davidl) on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 09:34 am: Edit Post

Further to my earlier post regarding BG seemingly avoiding Homecare contractual obligations:

Hmmm... the flue pipework is from Terrain, and as far as I can tell it *is* mUPVC (they manufacture only 2 50mm pipes, the other is polypropelene, which am I correct in thinking would not exhibit the rigidity of [mU]PVC).

And on thinking about it some more, I remember what scared me was the BG engineer telling me I would have to replace the flue, possibly taking down the kitchen ceiling above which it runs, and his comments about cases of carbon monoxide poisoning which he was implying were linked to the flue I have in place. Now I'm angry.

I put in a second* call to BG, and they're sending around another engineer on Monday. This time, with a little (dangerous) knowledge, I'm going to take detailed notes and see how he responds when I ask him sign them at the end of what I expect to be another brush off. I'll let you know.

David

*Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised that the operator seemed as concerned to sell me an electrics cover "upgrade" as to schedule an engineer to try to resolve my complaint. You gotta admire their shamelessness.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Gradwell (Editor) on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 09:41 am: Edit Post

I'm not up to speed on this job and correct me if I'm wrong by all means. If the installation is not as per manufacturer's instructions (?), then BG have no choice but to require it to be corrected. I would do the same.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By chris hutt (Chrishutt) on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 01:24 pm: Edit Post

The flue and air duct fittings should be clearly marked with the material that they're made from. It's either ABS or muPVC. It certainly wouldn't be PP, which is exclusively push-fit.

You should down-load the installation instructions from the Keston site and check over your installation before Monday to see that it conforms. That way you'll be prepared if they try to trick you with something else.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Bryant (Mike) on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 05:51 pm: Edit Post

In my experience the pipe is sometimes not legibly marked, but the fittings always are. Fittings always have the letters MuPVC or ABS (sometimes only about 2mm high) moulded into the them. This gives a positive ID for the fittings at least.

It is surprisingly difficult to buy MuPVC fittings and pipe, (and I regularly see ABS installed on Keston flues), but once you've identified your fittings, I'd suggest the pipe will match. It's unlikely that anyone would go to the trouble of sourcing MuPVC fittings then use them with ABS pipe (even though they are dimensionally compatible).

How did the BG bloke establish that your flue was ABS? Did he actually find it marked, or was he guessing, so he had an excuse to abandon a boiler he couldn't fix? I don't buy the 'NCS' excuse. There are dozens of NCS faults on virtually every installation if you look properly. If BG had a policy of declining to repair when an NCS is spotted, they'd never fix anything.

For clarity, the action an RGI is required to take on identifying a gas fault (of any category) is to apply 'IUP'. That's 'Industry Unsafe Procedure'. This entails writing out a Warning Notice, and if the fault is AR or ID (but not NCS) labeling the appliance and turning it off, and if ID, disconnecting from the gas supply as well. Nothing in those rules about not being allowed to work on an installation with NCS faults, you'll no doubt note.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nikolas Green (Nikgreen) on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 08:29 am: Edit Post

I have a Ariston Genus 27 boiler that has developed a fault with the expansion vessel (CH) Pressure drops over night causing red light to come on, boiler will not start, needs water pressure to 1.5bar.

An engineer attended, confirmed the fault but has not returned to fit it, part ordered, arrived and ready to fit!! Now unable to get the company to return for 4 weeks +. My question, is the expansion vessel hard to fit i.e. could I do it, or (preferred)is there an engineer near Devizes (Wilts) that could attend and fit for me, grateful for any advice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Gradwell (Editor) on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 04:44 pm: Edit Post

I regret this website cannot be used to source Installers. Please source Installers via:

www.corgi-gas-safety.com


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Bryant (Mike) on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 08:21 pm: Edit Post

I suspect the engineer is avoiding the return visit because he suspects his diagnosis may be incorrect.

You'll get extensive advice (possibly too extensive!) if you ask on www.diynot.com.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nigel Wroe (Wroey) on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 03:05 pm: Edit Post

I have a Baxi Solo 3 60PF (6 years old). Boiler starts up and heats nicely until water at required temperature, (whether CH or HW), and then powers down, only to refire within seconds.

However, the Corgi man sent of for a new PCB, (on Baxi's advice), and installed it a week ago on Monday, only to find the same problem.

Original PCB re-installed, while Corgi man has gone off to query Baxi again. Meanwhile I have Googled all over and found this site.

Just reading up on here I have checked the pump, working fine at all speeds, the 3-way valve, the wall mounted thermostat, the cylinder thermostat and have come to the (non-expert) conclusion that it is the little red flow control thermistor on the flow pipe.

It is securely on. Have photo if necessary.

Please help as it is very expensive taking time off work to accompany Corgiman on voyage of discovery.

TIA


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernie Beaumont (Berniex) on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 04:58 pm: Edit Post

As Tony says elsewhere, this site is not for giving DIY advice.

Its not safe to give advice on gas appliances to anyone who may not be competent to work on them safely.


My suggestion would be to have the RGI pick up a key from yourself on the day of work then you have no need to be there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By chris hutt (Chrishutt) on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 05:07 pm: Edit Post

Are you sure that there isn't a problem with the 3 port valve? Have you checked that it is wired up correctly and that the orange wire feeding the switched live to the boiler is only live when it should be?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nigel Wroe (Wroey) on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 06:47 pm: Edit Post

Hi Bernie,

You forgot to suggest that I prepare a packed lunch and arrange regular visits to make sure the RGI hasn't starved to death, or come to some other mishap, and assured me that he is not on the very expensive Baxi helpline waiting for an answer from Baxi because he, RGI or not, is completely baffled.

You might have said:

"Hi, I know what the problem is, tell him to ring me on 123 etc and I can give him the answer to save you money, his time, and the reputation of the trade"

We have already been down one blind alley.

To Chris,

Thanks. No wiring checks have been made as this appliance had been working satisfactorily until recently. It has to be some component failure, but narrowing it down is the problem.

Hence the post on here to see if anyone has come across these symptoms.

I am happy to engage a competent RGI, to effect a repair, but not for someone who is going to charge for a voyage of discovery. Would you?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Glazier (Agile) on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 07:20 pm: Edit Post

You imply your RGI...

is charging you for a "voyage of discovery".

If he is charging you by the hour then that sounds rather unreasonable as he does not seem very competent. Clearly he had no idea of the fault and had to ask Baxi who had not much of an idea either.

Its pretty simple to test the sensor and if this was suspected then he should have done that.

We charge a fixed price diagnostic fee although many RGIs do charge for their incompetence in taking ages to find faults. Its up to you to choose someone whose charging system is acceptable to you.

Tony Glazier


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Bryant (Mike) on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 08:59 pm: Edit Post

Might not be the boiler to blame.

I had a Suprima the other day that would fire up ok on call for HW but would fail to complete the ignition sequence on call for CH. Not possible eh? Well yes it is, actually.

Problem was the CH call for heat signal was 190v instead of 240v. Faulty Siemens mid-position valve, delivering 190v out on the orange lead instead of 240v. The Suprima knew it was being asked to do something, but it wasn't sure what. Maybe your fault is something similar.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nigel Wroe (Wroey) on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 10:45 pm: Edit Post

Isn't the fact that they are a RGI "Corgi" supposed to indicate a degree of competence, or is that con-pretence? LOL

Right then, having a legal monopoly over gas installation and repair, what is the next step to ensuring that the monopolist can do an effective, and efficient job at a fair price?

Is there some other "inner guild" I can access to reach a highly experienced body of RGI's who have high standards and are professional?

I thought I had when accessing this site. I haven't quite given up on you guys yet.

Or should I resign myself to blowing the cost of a brand new boiler because of a faulty APS, or Thermistor, or incorrect spark gap, or incorrect gas pressure, or leaky vacuum tubes, or a blown PCB.

You talk rather condescendingly about not giving advice to the DIY visitor, but by discussing solutions here on a public forum, then you are doing just that!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By chris hutt (Chrishutt) on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 11:28 pm: Edit Post

Nigel, you have been given advice, but you seem intent on ignoring it. Perhaps that is the real problem?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Glazier (Agile) on Monday, November 20, 2006 - 11:32 pm: Edit Post

CORGI registration is ...

a legal requirement to be allowed to work om gas appliances.

The requirements to be come registered involve having gained a degree of experience and passing some assessments. There is no requirement to be good at diagnosing faults.

Many of the people who write postings here are fairly competent and are scattered over the country but there is no "inner guild" relating to boiler fault diagnosis. Members of the IDHEE or IPHE are more likely to be better but thats all.

As far as charges are concerned those like us who do fault diagnosis for a fixed price are likely to be quicker at it than those who charge by the hour.

Its up to the customer to choose whom he employs.

This site is primarily for RGIs to discuss the more technical aspects of the work we do. There are other sites which are for DIY advice but remember the quality of advice given depends on the giver and there is a lot of very uninformed advice there!

Tony Glazier


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Brooks (Croydoncorgi) on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 12:49 am: Edit Post

FWIW, you have to consider the possibility of an external fault (eg. on the 3-port valve) causing the boiler the fire although (for example) the demand for water heating is theoretically satisfied. This has been suggested to you already but ignored.

The obvious first test is whether the boiler is refiring because it has been told to (via switched-live) or randomly because its faulty. Given that the PCB is virtually the only place where such a fault COULD occur and you've already told us that a replacement PCB did not change the situation, there must be some other information lacking.

I HAVE noticed a sort-of 'rebound effect' on some (older) Solos, which fire briefly, turn off for maybe 15 - 20 seconds then re-fire and stay on for a longer period. Never found out exactly why but since the boiler was supposed to be firing at the time, it made little practical difference.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Gradwell (Editor) on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 07:40 am: Edit Post

As pointed out by others, this forum is not, never has been and never will be a forum for [DIY] trouble-shooting appliance breakdowns.

We do have a permament message to that effect in the consumers' section but with the forum being so large, people often miss the section. That is our fault which we need to correct.

Professional Installers know you need equipment for diagnostic work which may not be available to lay people. Given my own experience on new-build trouble-shooting, many reported boiler faults were in fact system faults and nothing to do with the boiler.

Another complication may arise where systems are not built as they should be. That is a potential major hazard for new Installers learning the craft. I have isolated spur switches only to discover that a zone valve is still live etc. Even alleged professionals have to be on their toes in any new situation.

As I once reported, a neighbour sought advice [from a DIY forum] on re-wiring because he did not understand why there were two wires in every socket. I.E. the ring main.

He was pleased to quickly learn the reason. Unfortunately he rewired in 1.5mm cable as that was cheaper. People assumed he knew it should be 2.5 twin and earth cable. He did not and the house remains partly re-wired in 1.5mm cable.

I have always employed qualified professionals myself for vehicles, computers and electrical work. We all take a risk when we employ someone. Generally I ask around friends if seeking a new professional.

I would respectfully suggest this thread is now closed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nigel Wroe (Wroey) on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 09:44 am: Edit Post

I would respectfully suggest that this thread remain open for one further posting. I will come back to tell you for how long I was given the run-around by a succession of "competent qualified RGI's", how many blind alleys I was taken down, how many hours of experimentation I have been charged, and just perhaps, what the solution was.

I give thanks to those among you who ventured out of the closed shop and put their open minds to considering possible causes. I would recommend you as founder members of the newly formed "Inner Guild of RGI's", experienced, professional, honourable, and courteous.

For the others, well at least you will now realise why your monopoly gives you a real problem with the public. Not one among you has offered, as a service to the trade, to discuss the problem with my RGI. He might still be learning his trade, but rather than letting him blunder on or give up, you might have provided some help and direction. How on earth do your young trainees make any progress with your type as "guild masters".

I am a professional in my own field. I don't have the benefit of a monopoly to protect my interests, I have to rely on integrity and professionalism to maintain my reputation in my field of expertise.

I don't doubt that this thread will be closed, even deleted as testament to your embarrassment.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Brooks (Croydoncorgi) on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 10:35 am: Edit Post

Well - prepare to be surprised then!
Threads don't disappear around except for certain legal reasons.

You do not seem minded to be much help to yourself in this case, bearing in mind the potential offence you have produced.

If you've selected a muppet to fix your boiler, that was your choice. Whether you can find an alternative is again your choice and probably mostly a matter of geography. Whether the person who ends updoing the work is well-supported with advice and guidance depends entirely on them, and / or who they work for. Size of 'employing company' is no guide to quality. It's most unlikely that he or they will be in any way connected with anyone posting here.

Your glib reference to a 'monopoly' is uninformed.
You should also remember (or learn) that being a Registered Gas Installer is not in fact a qualification for repairing gas boilers! It's mostly to do with gas safety.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nigel Wroe (Wroey) on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 02:26 pm: Edit Post

In summary then:

Use only an RGI.
Bear in mind that some RGI's are Muppets.
Bear in mind that some RGI's will overcharge you.
There is no inner guild of professional RGI's.
Use a quality RGI.
There is no useful guide to selecting a quality RGI.
An RGI is only concerned with gas safety, not efficiency or economy of repair.
Trust an RGI with your house keys.
Don't trust an RGI not to overcharge you.
The consumer is liable to pay the costs of RGI knowledge development.
Only RGI's are legally able to repair a gas installation.
The monopoly over gas installations is uninformed.
Don't rely on an RGI forum to inform you.
RGI forums do not give advice to consumers.
RGI forum recommends that you take their advice.

Oh, and let's not forget: "Baxi Solo 3 60PF - Cycling", RGI Consensus: "We haven't a bleedin' clue mate, but it will cost you while we find out"

Am I really surprised by this sequence?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Gradwell (Editor) on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 06:28 pm: Edit Post

Having worked closely myself with BBC Rogue-Traders over a period of time, I can confirm that Registered Gas Installers are not all as ethical as we would wish. We worked closely with one unhappy customer who arrived through the website, then delivered the offending company stuffed, trussed and ready for the oven to the BBC. That company subsequently had top billing on a show.

Despite that CORGI accepted advertising from the company in their magazine. And CORGI is not a club. Essentially it is an administrative body which maintains a register of companies on behalf of the HSE, in much the same way as DVLC.

RGI simply have a license to work on some aspects of gas work. Being registered says nothing else, any more than having a driving license automatically makes me a good driver.

Many of the people visiting this website undertake gas incidental to their main business. Ethical professionals will find they have plenty of returning customers. Once established in the area we never advertised. We didnít need to. We never advertised gas either as we never looked for gas work.

Essentially we would repair what we had fitted AND what we had trained on with manufacturers. Sometimes we would call in a manufacturerís own engineers to a boiler if it was not a boiler we were familiar with.

Occasionally, as others have mentioned here, we would undertake diagnostic work with the promise of nil cost if unsuccessful. Domestic work was invariably fixed fee anyway, under any heading.

Professionals tend to focus on two or three brands and stick to those. There are relatively few with sufficient expertise to successfully undertake work on a wide range of boilers [there are many hundreds of different boilers currently in use as www.boilers.org.uk shows].

I personally trained on the original Solo range with Baxi. Making a rare exception once I repaired a Solo [new fan] for a friend of a customer. One month later he returned from Xmas holiday to find the boiler was [allegedly] tripping out the RCD. An electrican friend of his suspected the new fan.

Impossible to diagnose on the phone. Turned out heíd left the heating off and the system had frozen while he was away. The pump leaked water into the electrics. New pump fitted on-the-spot and all OK. System fault and not the boiler as it appeared.

Iíve been able to persuade people to take out a manufacturerís maintenance scheme with boilers fitted. They have the know-how and parts on board.

Otherwise, asking around friends seems to be the safest option.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Bryant (Mike) on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 07:53 pm: Edit Post

I dunno if you class my single contribution to this thread as qualifying me for your fictitious 'inner guild' status, but I'm a relatively new entrant to gas engineering myself. I became an RGI in November 2002 IIRC.

I've picked up most of my knowledge by doing the job and asking here for support when I need it. There is nothing stopping your muppet RGI coming here for technical support either, but we haven't seen him so far.

I operate a no-fix, no-fee policy generally (unless there are specific reasons to withdraw it) as I like to live on my wits. I don't think I've ever been taken up on it. I think you should be putting more effort into selecting your repair engineer. Some RGIs are better at installing, others better at fault diagnosis. Most prefer one or the other and I suspect you have unwittingly employed an installer-at-heart.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Tibbetts (Plombier) on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 09:03 pm: Edit Post

How about contacting the installer and/or the RGI who regularly services the boiler - you do have it regularly serviced don't you??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Nesbitt (John11668) on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 09:35 pm: Edit Post

The tone of the last three contributions are much more in keeping with the general mood of this site and it is good that the thread is cooling down. It was not innapropriate for members to draw attention to the fact that it is a legal requirement for anyone working on a gas appliance to be a qualified person.
It follows that they cant be seen to encourage DIY gas work by advising the general public on how to do fix their boilers.
However if Nigel had come into the forum pretending to be a recently qualified RGI with a problem, then many members would have been keen to help him.
This is a potential danger as members of the public who may have seen this exchange may not identify themselves so honestly in future.

Nigel does have a point though. It is clear that RGIs have a spectrum of ability which ranges from Superb to Abysmal and the general public may at the mercy of the latter.
Take for example the Corgi website "find an installer " facility. You type in a postcode and you get a lottery result. Six RGIs selected at random from those who live within a given radius. There is no guidance regarding the general ability, experience, specific skills, or background. In Corgis eyes all RGIs are the same.

Nigel has recognised that his first choice installer may not have been the best choice in the world and may indeed have been learning at Nigels expense. It is unfortunate that this may be a common scenario and I sympathise with him for the situation he finds himself in.

I am in an unusual position being a service engineer, of fair experience but no longer an RGI so I often find myself advising registered colleagues. I ruffled a few feathers some months ago when I criticied the training regime which lets the "muppets" into the industry. Nigels comments reinforce what I said at that time and I am sure that Nigel is one of millions who hold similar views. I am often asked "who should I get to fix my boiler" I usually have to say "sorry but I dont know who to recommend". I know lots of RGIs, a few who I would heartily recommend, but who I know will not be able to attend for weeks, and a greater number who I would not recommend to anyone under any circumstances. What chance have Nigel and the general public as long as this situation prevails.

Nigel raises the point about an "Inner Guild". There should be a Hierarchy. We are not equal. In any group of individuals there will always be those who are more experienced , have special skills, and dare I say it greater ability. Should they not be encouraged to higher qualifications. Surely it is no good for the industry if we cease all academic development having achieved the lofty status of RGI


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Brooks (Croydoncorgi) on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 11:24 pm: Edit Post

RGI status is far from 'lofty', IMHO. It is the lowest common denominator out of those who put themselves forward, with more-or-less a standard pass-mark, as far as I can determine.
There has been much recent criticism of GCSE exams for exactly the same reason. If the overall standard of candidates is low, then the quality of those who pass will be low also!
I'd be strongly in favour of a Career Professional Development (CPD) structure for RGIs, which would have the effect long-term that you seek. As long as CORGI supports the Same-Old-Stuff-Every-5-Years methods, nothing will change.

There is also a large question mark over the attitude of the majority of RGIs to this approach.

Les - might be a good idea to move this thread to the Main Discusion area. I suggest it raises important issues not confined to Baxi Solos.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Glazier (Agile) on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 11:56 pm: Edit Post

CPD is usually used as ...

initials for Continuing Professional Development.

CORGI have apparently shown some support for the idea of compulsory days of CPD every year instead of resitting the ACS every five years.

Tony


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Gradwell (Editor) on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 12:01 am: Edit Post

An idea we mooted years ago as an option to the five yearly cycles.

Incidentally, how long before ACS expires can one take ACS again without losing benefit ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernie Beaumont (Berniex) on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 12:02 am: Edit Post

Tony, can you say who, what or where you heard about corgi thoughts on cpd?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Nesbitt (John11668) on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 09:29 am: Edit Post

I used the word lofty in an ironic tone, Maybe that did not come through.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nigel Wroe (Wroey) on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 03:57 pm: Edit Post

Hi Guys,

I am gratified that you were able to cut through my frustration and also recognised my honesty as a "consumer". I apologise for any offence this has caused. I am pleased to have provoked further debate on the concept of a "guild" of some sort.

All the best to all.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Gradwell (Editor) on Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 08:59 pm: Edit Post

I'll now move these postings to the consumers' section and close this thread.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nigel Wroe (Wroey) on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 11:17 am: Edit Post

Epilogue:

The APS was suspected as earlier when the boiler would not start at all I tapped the APS and it fired up. I replaced the APS. The tubes were OK, if a little hardened at the fan end due to exhaust heat.

I also ended up replacing the thermistor, and finally, after downloading the MI from Baxi and following the fault finding chart, I changed the potentiometer.

It was this last change which restored the boiler to full and satisfactory operation.

Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Bryant (Mike) on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 09:30 pm: Edit Post

Thanks for the feedback Nigel.

It's a sad reflection that widespread technical incompetency in our trade has lead a punter to eventually fix his own boiler using generic technical skills.

I've an uneasy suspicion that Nigel Wroe is actually more competent than his RGI.