What can you say about the new product called enviro firelogs? It uses 100 percent recycled waxed cardboard, typically used to transport fruits and vegetables to produce processors, grocery stores and restaurants, to manufacture its earth-friendly firelogs. When compared to firewood, Enviro-Log Firelogs burn cleaner, emitting 30 percent less greenhouse gases, 80 percent less carbon dioxide and 86 percent less creosote, while also providing 50 percent more heat per pound.
A very naughty and blatant advertising posting which I will forgive as I am still setting up the new forum. I have removed the URL which was for our friends at BES.
I hope actually to move onto the subject concerned, with others, but we will do it our way. Everything sounds fine and dandy but it is all hearsay. I will need hard evidence for the claims made. That includes knowing how much greenhouse gas (etc) is produced in the manufacture of these fancy sounding logs. I use log fires routinely.
These postings may disappear when the section is reorganised as it will be soon.
Nice to have u back Mr Gradwell !!!
Today I was given another of those CORGI HomePlan letters using stolen data from when CORGI had an official role. The letter accompanying the offer boasts “Half price home cover for 2 years when you sign up this winter". Their now familiar comparison chart includes the normal price crossed out and the special offer price added:
Just for interest I looked at the letters being sent last month. No mention of any special offer then but the comparison chart is as below:
Question I want to know is, is that a trade-descriptions offence ?
Trust-Corgi ? I wouldn’t …
There are other benefits to these green fire logs.These green fire logs can also be bought at reasonable price. Also, these firelogs generate more energy per pound than wood compared to other firelog brands.
Editor - URL removed
Stop obsessing about logs & get a life.
Corgi. not so much the dogs bollox as a bunch of mangy dogs then.
Seasons greetings. Don't think I'm getting e-mail notifications of new posts, Les at the moment.
On another subject. Bioethanol flueless fires . Rated at 4KW . No built in safety devices. Vague ventilation instructions. Just says well ventilated room not permanent vent. Can be put anywhere by any DIYer. Produce roughly KW per KW as much CO2 as a flueless gas fire, so actually producing more CO2 than a FocalPoint rated at under 3KW. No ODT however ineffective. CO incident waiting to happen?
I have not had a chance to update but referrals for the £ORGI deal were once being bounced to Green Installer but that does not happen now. I am busy at the moment but when I get chance I will update on that score. The HomePlan comparison chart has still not been challenged but I suspect the other people mentioned do not consider £ORGI to be a threat and therefore say nowt.
The Worcester deal does include controls if they are their own fitted with the boiler. Got my neighbour and several other people on the Worcester scheme. A friend of mine took the Homeserve deal but switched to BG as soon as she could.
I fitted the very latest enormous Viessmann combi for her but BG would not touch it as the manual quoted torque settings for this, that and the other. BG would not equip engineers with torque kits so yours truly ended up as piggy in the middle and neither BG nor Viessmann gave a xxxx but that is the way these people are and none of us should ever forget that.
As far as I know BG do everything except feed the cat on the HomeCare 400 scheme. Incidentally £ORGI first registered HomeCare as a trade mark even though BG had it registered as a trade mark first. £ORGI were forced to surrender it then used HomePlan.
I may ask a bookie for a line on survival of HomePlan.
Forgot to ask. Any details of that gas fire please. PDF manual etc. Is it CE marked and does it have a GC number (not all CE marked appliances do now).
Bioethanol Les . Just comparing with what would be requirements for a flueless gas fire. http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=1&gs_ri=hp&to k=XEo1PVbtM488AaEF80GNVw&cp=18&gs_id=b9&xhr=t&q=bioethanol+fires&bav=on.2,or.r_g c.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.d2k&bpcl=40096503&biw=1440&bih=761&um=1&ie =UTF-8&cid=7223459498174815059&sa=X&ei=4OTpUIakC7KN0wXBv4HoAw&sqi=2&ved=0CFMQ8wI wAQ. Heres one example. Claim to be very green.
I contacted them re kilowatt output , looked at the chemical equation for combustion and then looked at energy production per gram mole to see what CO2 they would produce compared to methane.
This may fall within the remit of OFTEC ?
Any combustion process can produce CO. There are no exceptions.
A rare case I admit but years ago a faulty electric storage heater poisoned someone.
Anyone in touch with OFTEC ?
Passed details onto CO Gas Safety who are passing my concerns on to relevant bodies.
I had a lot of correspondence with Stephanie just before Christmas on the subject of that extraordinary new CMDDA1 certification and the allegedly related Gas Safe Technical Bulletin 103, which they have now just withdrawn if you check on the Gas Safe website. I wrote also to Gas Safe and the Editor of Gas Engineer magazine. Several missives were sent if anyone is interested in the subject.
A silly article appeared in Gas Engineer on the subject of CMDDA1 allegedly penned by EU Skills who I personally do not recognise as having any in-house expertise on the subject. Certainly they never mentioned the existence of the extraordinary TB103 in the article (dare not), which as I say has now been withdrawn. There was no common ground in the two documents which purport to be on the same subject and in my view put Registered Gas Engineers seriously at risk. Heads they win, tails we lose.
TB103 was written by a power-crazed administrator (incomprehensible gibberish) and the magazine article had all the hallmarks of Enid Blyton; this is the UK in 2013.
Following correspondence I am now informed that both the magazine and the technical bulletins have equal status and are advisory only. That said, both have a Duty of Care in Tort and they would all do very well to remember that. If you hear of anyone wrong-footed on that subject ask them or their lawyers to contact me.
I am only guessing but if you check the dates it is highly likely that TB103 was devised (or whatever the word is) at the end of £ORGI’s reign. The two year old plus TB103 broadcast the CMDDA1 option almost two years before it actually became available ? It first became available in July 2012 at one college and the EU Skills website was out of date on that subject. EU Skills would do well to keep their own house in order first before publishing silly articles which I implore one and all to ignore until the whole situation is sorted out.
It would not surprise me if TB103 vanished in due course as it cannot be reconciled with the real world of commerce. CMDDA1 needs to be abolished and they need to go back to the drawing board. It is a solution looking for a problem.
CMDDA1 = Carbon Monoxide/Carbon Dioxide – Domestic Atmosphere & Appliance Testing
Greetings, just checking I am still registered to post
No one should be lost. Housekeeping was always regularly undertaken on the forum and when there is something worth seeing I can email everyone via a PC based mailing list program I have installed. One initial mailing will disclose any redundant email addresses which will automatically be weeded out. Mailing out is done in batches.
I thought this might be of interest to your readers.
Man is jailed for gas meter tampering
A MAN living in Lisburn has been convicted of criminal damage with intent to endanger life and for theft of gas.
Romanos Obichodenko, was convicted and sentenced to twelve months in custody for criminal damage with intent to endanger life and six months to run concurrent for theft of gas.
This is believed to be the first conviction for the more serious change of criminal damage to gas apparatus with intent to endanger life in the UK, when an explosion had not occurred.
The case was heard at Craigavon Crown Court and arose when the landlord of 6 Wesley Street, Lisburn was inspecting his property on February 13, 2012 and found the accused tampering with the gas meter.
The meter pressure regulator had also been removed. Police and Phoenix Emergency operatives attended the scene.
The electronic gas meter was recovered and was examined and diagnostically tested resulting in the determination that the meter had been tampered.
A Phoenix Natural Gas spokesman said: “These incidences are rare, however, Phoenix does continue to make safe properties where there has been detected meter tampering, an activity which is illegal, exceptionally dangerous and poses a risk to both life and property.
“As with this particular case Phoenix also passes on relevant details of properties involved in deliberate meter tampering to the relevant authorities. Anyone who believes their gas meter may have been tampered without their knowledge should contact us as soon as possible on 0800 002 001.”
A police spokesperson said: “Police welcome the sentence imposed by the court on Romanos Obichodenko for a number of offences including criminal damage with intent to endanger life.
“The sentence reflects the seriousness of the offence and sends a clear message to those involved in this type of activity that it is not only illegal but poses a serious risk to life and property.
“Incidents of deliberate meter tampering reported to Police will be investigated and you will go before the courts.”
i am trying to source an old natural gas flueless water heater for teaching purposes. Can anyone help me please?
Recommend you try the forum at http://www.argi-online.org.uk where there will be more activity.
NB: Subsequent attempts to raise ARGI have failed. It is assumed that ARGI has now folded as no trace can be found on the internet. The Wiki page link does not deliver.
I was at the – superb as always – www.phexshow.co.uk yesterday in Manchester and picked up a leaflet on a Gas Engineers’ Forum. I have scanned that into a PDF file if anyone is interested. The leaflet is self explanatory and can be downloaded from:
I am not hooked up to facebook but for anyone who is this is a direct link:
hi all new to forum
Hello to everyone!
Hope Les is OK.
Very quiet here!
Hi all hope you can help I have a vokera compact 29 mtn it is showing a solid red light the pump starts but the fan does not there is 240 at the fan main feed what is the start SEQUENCE of the boiler does it check thermostats before starting the fan,
when I turn the spur to the boiler off the fan turns as if to get rid of any currant left in it can anyone help
There is no search facility.
I was trying to retrieve the posting from the guy who fitted a sealed system kit to an Ideal Mexico (?) and it overheated and burst a plastic pipe and brought down the ceiling and gave £3.5 k of damage?
Hope you are well Les
Still alive, well and very busy. I remember that matter very well and still have a shed-load of paperwork sent to me.
Try the word Martindale in the search box and it will deliver those postings. Just worked for me.
hi i have a baxi solo3 60 pfl:
boiler on light illuminated but fan on not.
resistances on thermistor, fan, gas valve, pump are all ok.
overheat has continuity. a.p.s. has continuinty common to nc.
baxi advised nothing else other than pcb. changed. still same fault.
any advise kindly appreciated.
This website is too quiet for your needs. Try the others mentioned above. Gas-News served its historical purpose very well indeed. That was to serve as a shield between Installers and the well publicised corrupt aspects of CORGI. The latter can never return though they continue to exploit data stolen from Installers, which the Information Commissioner is powerless to act on.
That said the Solo was one of my favourites, being a solid piece of kit. One foible was a known dry joint on the PCB which some would repair. I used to change them and believe I may still have one carefully packed in its original box and styrene foam from days long gone.
I have had contact with Gas Safe recently in connection with their poor website, sloppy delivery and presentation of Technical Data in that section. I had an email last week suggesting their records show I have not visited the website for 6 months, yet I log-in and check every day. In short do not trust any statistics they may produce on the latter.
I am still very concerned about the extraordinary nonsense contained in CMDDA1 and the trail of maladministration that has left. In my view Installers and the public are at some risk.
Letter in RGE from Mike Heads about CMDDA1. Doesn't mention he is a trainer. It has had terribly poor uptake and the centres have invested lots of money as have the accreditation bodies.
The RGE app doesn't work for most people given a blaze of publicity. They haven't troubled to make sure it works yet.
As to risk there are two reports that show from gas appliances heavily overblown. Again the LJMU study Dr Andy Shaw was given loads of publicity. We requested data on numerous occasions not forthcoming. Finally tracked it down amounts to almost nothing. The other report is from the Gas Safety Trust CO portal. Links will be posted shortly
http://www.coportal.org/wp-content/uploads/gst_attachments/a8c7b13420a13fc46441f 8e29138fe6d/24122014100757-A%20Review%20of%20Carbon%20Monoxide%20Incident%20Info rmation%20for%202012-2013.pdf
The latter confirms in introduction what I have been saying for years.
Interesting stuff thanks which I will study in full later.
My view on the issue of Fumes Investigation as sent to Gas Safe recently:
Of course well expensive and mainly created because of pressure from CO groups and their desire that ever greater sums of money are spent.
One thing I have found concerning yet to be raised is the disappearance of the advice in GIUSP for terminals from RS boilers too close openings no reported fumes re-entering. This used to be advised as NTCS under previous editions now nothing. It's also a fact that without CMDDA1 no conclusions can be drawn using ECGA about ambient CO to check for reentry anyway. Many people automatically treat this as AR but then it could be put in GIUSP as such couldn't it. Even technical agreed that they had been surprised at the disappearance of advice on the subject.
If I had undertaken CMDDA1 or I was a College having set up for CMDDA1, the powers-that-be would have been in court long before now. They have effectively sabotaged it by saying (though to cover themselves not in any permanent form), that Installers can investigate a first report of ‘fumes’.
The whole subject is one hell of a mess and I wrote a great deal on that (to Gas Safe) a long time ago when the extraordinarily incompetent TB103 first emerged. I also took issue with the editor of the magazine over that infamous article which would have the effect of luring unwary Installers into very treacherous territory. Shame on them.
For take-up of CMDDA1 see if you can find anyone with it on the Gas Safe database. The nearest one to me within yodelling distance is of course a Housing Association who slap the silly cost on rents. I tried a few postcodes.
GIUSP (Gas Industry Unsafe Situations Procedure) remains unchanged on the Gas Safe website at 2012. There was of course an allegedly public consultation on proposals to change that, which I had a bit to say on. I focused on examples rather than the whole.
It is suggested that NCS be removed entirely which I approve of, with qualification. Some topics covered by NCS currently will need to be revisited first. And I mean first.
Just one example (proposed GIUSP) that concerned me was the suggestion (by the alleged experts) that use of a gas barbeque indoors be classed as AR (At Risk) when it is obviously ID (Immediately Dangerous). The reason ? It is all about what I have dubbed ‘the corrupting influence of administrative convenience’. That is to say their administrative convenience. It would not be possible to implement ID protocol for a gas barbeque so they downgrade the obvious danger. What is popularly termed hypocrisy.
The big problem with GIUSP is for employed Installers who, in some cases, are under intense pressure to turn a blind eye. I get calls on that from employed Installers who are very competent at the work but weak on how to deal with GIUSP. One very recently was having a very hard time with his employer over an obviously At Risk situation (not prescribed). I wrote a very short paragraph for him to type into his PDA and that worked miracles. They had to act immediately and did so; a well-known lecturer on gas was often seen wandering the corridors muttering the acronym CYA all the time. Cover your arse in English.
To ensure an impartial look at GIUSP it needs to be chaired by completely independent and qualified academics, with the alleged experts, Installers and other stakeholders having some input.
That very recent and very timely Safety Alert on the Flue Gas Analyser showing zero CO when there is CO present should be a good lesson to learn about relying too much on electronic devices. The (older) models concerned either never did not comply with BS or the BS is itself faulty. IE not of merchantable quality. That said, CMDDA1 is utter nonsense anyway in its entirety.
As far as domestic CO detectors go I only use the Kidde which meets UK and USA standards. In the latter case low level background CO is also detected and reported on visually (LCD display). Any CO is a concern.
The edition before 2012 had guidance on Flues close to openings no fumes detected. this one says nothing other than fumes detected ID as does the draft GIUSP
I would want to see a definition of fumes.
Notwithstanding manufacturers’ instructions, the subject of flues next to openings, no fumes detected could of course be a complex one. Every scenario, without exception is different. A major problem for Gas Safe technical folk if someone telephones. They cannot advise, site (sight) unseen.
To use an excellent construction analogy, there exists something called a schedule of rates, as used a great deal by housing associations. An administrators dream (so they think) and a building surveyors nightmare.
At some time in history an army of quantity surveyors has compiled thousands of clauses (short paragraphs) describing every conceivable item of maintenance work that could crop up. Unbelievable detail. The whole colour coded and so many parts there are 50 shades of every colour as well as grey. Some shades so close you need 20/20 vision and good light.
Since then a more condensed version has arrived (I have a copy from when I worked with – not for – a couple of such organisations). The condensed version renders the main version redundant and pointless. Most people I have met produced their own closely guarded list of 100 items and never look beyond. Within that list 20 items are popular and number 20 is the get out of jail item. IE anything else.
No problem for contractor. They bill what is on the order as per rates and use number 20 for unforeseen items, real or imagined. That way they charge what the job actually costs anyway, so we are back to square one. No one can check once the job is done.
If every AR and ID was written down and prescribed as discovered, it would not be long before a huge encyclopaedia of items was written. In turn that would not be used either. Any list that is provided must be limited to (say) a total of 100 items or it will never be used.
This is where the art of Risk Assessment needs to be developed. Not something your average employed Installer might easily grasp, without training and experience. They may instinctively know what is a risk but not necessarily how to put that into words that will have an impact.
I would never look at GIUSP simply because I do not need to. If I see something that is obviously AR or ID I can describe that well enough to have a profound impact on the responsible person and of course CYA or CMA in this case.
I once saw a 22mm gas pipe being worn away by the up and over garage door rubbing on the pipe every time it was raised or lowered. Wearing marks obvious and a new home. Not in the book of course, one of many I have seen not in the book but no trouble dealing with it as AR. Others might have trouble or simply pretend they did not see it.
The problem being that if there is no guidance and anything happens they can simply say you were negligent and should have anticipated it might happen. They were happy to give guidance in 2012 now presumably they wish to escape any responsibility. I am an experienced engineer but could not predict why fumes might reenter if a terminal was 200mm from an opening in one instance and not in another if not in a semi restricted area. I have heard of cases of reentry when the opening was 4 ft away. The safe option is to AR the lot and that is what most will do.
I installed a very early condensing boiler (an M Series before mandatory) in the rear elevation of a terrace and the plume was occasionally detected by a neighbour entering their kitchen, depending on variable climatic conditions. The installation of course by the book. I removed it and fitted a Response 120 (unfortunately). No complaints after that. There are still fumes occasionally but unseen.
It is known that climatic conditions can pull air from a room or compartment through an air-brick which has been provided for air (oxygen) to enter. The permutations are endless.
But where there is a real risk from products of combustion entering any home it has to be dealt with, in case the appliance develops a combustion problem and starts spewing CO which can happen at any time. The problem is how to draw lines when describing this particular scenario, in such a way that your least learned Installer can interpret.
Im new to this forum and forums in general. I have a problem on a clients boiler that I have never come across and hope someone can help
The boiler is a Worcester Greenstar 30 Si the problem when a hot tap is opened the DHW reaches the required temp of 60degC and runs fine for about two minutes before dropping to 38degC, during this time the boiler is firing but no heat on the DHW. The diverter valve is moving correctly to the requirements, and the heating is reaching 70 degC. I have changed the DHW plate exchanger and DHW temp sensor. I called Worcester and their advise is to change the diverter assembly, failing that the PCB. I can't keep throwing parts at it and hoping for the best with a client looking over my shoulder. Any help would be appreciated.
Spoke to Worcester engineer friend. He says listen to fan if goes from high to low and no mid speed do a hard reset by pushing all 3 front buttons at once.
Will cure it.
Thanks for that Paul. Did not think anyone is looking in now.
Another org was brought to my attention recently if anyone wants to look in there: http://www.opgo.co.uk/
Been out all day.
Pleasure Les. I get e mail notifications of posts. If i have anything relevant to say would reply. Nothing much of interest that i have felt to post about of late. However there is this in the pipe-line. There are moves by National Grid to make 17.5mb the aspirational wp supplied at the meter. If it is so there will be an article in RGE. Not sure that it is a done deal yet. We at OPGO have been raising the issue of low pressure with HSE and Gas Safe and there is a draft response from NG which we have been allowed to comment on prior to anything being published. . Apparently we are getting a formal reply from Gas Safe approved by the HSE shortly
Is that 17.5 plus or minus as before ?
If so then an article in RGE will not be good enough for such a fundamental change, which I can't see being accepted. RGE is informative only.
Any such change at all would need to be formally notified to all RE given the significance until everyone has received the information on their next ACS.
I also have some information when I can get round to compiling and posting it. Concerns the infamous CMDDA1 matter.
Its 17.5 if they can otherwise 15 .Will send you something privately this evening not to be posted when i get a chance. The other thing is they dont and probably aren't capable of checking with everything running on max . I've been to ACS Centres where the assessor cannot follow instructions to force boiler to max and they have the instructions in front of them. They only have to run 3 cooker rings if they want though they are advised to run a bit more than that. So they work to different standard.
Cheers Paul, I'm going there tomorrow morning loaded with a PCB and Diverter Valve but will give the hard reset a go first. I'll let you know the outcome.
Thanks for the feedback . Makes it worthwhile. I understand if the fan goes straight to low flame as stated that this is a "permanent fix" as its a once in a blue moon pcb glitch causing it. If the fan doesnt do this may be other causes
Interesting stuff out of the blue. £ORGI are at it again, canvassing for new ‘members’ by offering ‘free’ membership to ‘quality’ Installers.
Whether a ‘quality’ Installer would want to be associated with that crowd remains to be seen. Accompanied by the usual fanciful self-aggrandising nonsense.
The email address used is one taken from the database they purloined when they lost their former official role to the sleeker Capita plc who continue to remain discreetly in the background, doing what they were hired to do.
Not surprisingly there is no opt-out provision on that spam email.
Back to 17.5 mb . With 1 mb drop to appliances this would give 16.5mb at appliances. Dont know if you have ever wondered what the G20 label means but if you have it refers to the testing procedure .
Its a test gas between 17 and 20mb specified in appliance standards. . So if 15mb at meter which Gas Networks say they could leave if too expensive to upgrade then could be left with 14mb at appliances which is well below the Pmin testing figure of European standards. The HHIC have been contacted to see if their members are happy that their appliances are safe at this figure but so far have avoided answering this question. This could be tricky as Gas Safe have said that you would need confirmation from manufacturers that all appliances are safe if low pressure.
I think we all know how difficut that will be to get in writing.
I did ask whether NG would need similar confirmation as often it is they who turn back on. Gas Safe said yes but having seen the correspondance i gather that NG will be ignoring this as i presume will be most RGEs.
Once upon a time … at an ACS renewal, the tutor referred to 21 + or – 2. Then added to the audience, which included rookies, that there are occasions when, perhaps a busy time (for gas) or other reasons mentioned, it is OK to accept less.
What the eminent journalist AEP once referred to as ‘a masterpiece of obfuscation’. In short useless.
My prompt and loud response to the rookies was (and still is). Ignore all that, it is 21 + or – 2 in the book and that is what we work to. Nothing was said by the tutor.
If NG choose to allow that in a particular case then they can drop in and tell the punter. We don’t get paid for that or have sufficient data to enable us to jump to any reliable conclusion, as mentioned by the tutor.
Notwithstanding, if a reduced pressure is affecting combustion then that is our job and you (should already) know what to do.
Just fitted an Ideal Independent for my mate’s old mum today and nice to see a test point on the gas shut off valve outside the boiler. No periscope and torch supplied to enable punters to check the pressure gauge and without my Bahco adjustable I would have been in trouble nipping up all the big nuts.
Merry Christmas Les
Merry Christmas Danny old friend and anyone else looking in.
I have done my stint at the helm (almost a decade) and there are now a number of excellent forums serving the wider community. The more the better but we all got the show on the road.
Other forums are hosted within associations of members, the first I am aware of being ARGI. Gas-News never was intended to be an association, preferring to work on the margins.